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Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ck5 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 5 at 4:36 PM Sun, Jul 5, 09 at 04:36:36 EDT (In reply to HMM6) Like!

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: HMM6 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 5 at 9:49 PM Sun, Jul 5, 09 at 09:49:39 EDT (In reply to ck5)lol.....sorry it's a habit.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Jul 11 at 12:11 PM Sat, Jul 11, 09 at 12:11:00 EDT (In reply to HMM6) A: Educational studies have overwhelmingly shown that students learn more from group work than from lecture. Lecture is probably the least effective way to learn yet a professor can disseminate enormous volumes of knowledge over a short time: students just cannot absorb the lecture. In fact, the average first year student has an attention span of approximately five minutes of lecture. This idea is supported by multiple studies, including work done at Cornell. Like it or not, the human brain is more like a collander when it comes to knowledge retention. B: When you leave the University setting most businesses employ some form of group work--get used to it. C: If you are taking a writing course then it is beneficial to get instant feedback, as opposed to waiting for an overloaded instructor to get back to you a week or more later. D: The slacker/weaker student suddenly "sees" why they have always had lackluster grades and hopefully will improve. E: There is a certain comfort in a huddled group groaning about the same issues with school.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: cactusflinthead Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Jul 11 at 2:04 PM Sat, Jul 11, 09 at 02:04:57 EDT (In reply to HMM6) Yes, group work blows, but it mimics what you get to deal with in the work world. The same damn slackers that don't show up for meetings or contribute anything to the group are the ones in the next cubicle after you graduate. Guess what, they will still glom onto any success there too. Get used to it.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: cactusflinthead Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Jul 11 at 2:09 PM Sat, Jul 11, 09 at 02:09:44 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) I got a lot more out of a good lecture than having to deal with other's priorities in a group. If they can't focus for longer than five minutes that is their problem, not mine. It is the prof's job to drag all of us towards some goal of knowing this material, if I have to participate in some group therapy so the slackers can get there too, fine, but I don't have to like it.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Jul 11 at 3:32 PM Sat, Jul 11, 09 at 03:32:59 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Your response is editorialized nonsense. Reality is--higher attrition rates in schools that are based on group learning--people just can't get along and the learning curve differs for most folks. Many students/workers carry the weight for others on the so-called team and people should take a stand against it. And the "colander" (one "l" if you will) is highly subjective.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 12 at 4:16 PM Sun, Jul 12, 09 at 04:16:17 EDT (In reply to guest2 An ad hominem attack does not alter the fact that group work is more effective as a teaching tool than lecture. This statement is based off of over 80 years of research into the most effective ways to convey knowledge, not an editorial. Higher attrition rates correspond, since WWII, with the increasing numbers of students that are under prepared for college work. The average student has an attention span of 5 minutes, however an exceptional student might have 15 minutes of focus. Still not enough for a typical 35-45 minutes of lecture. The studies that make that determination were carried out at Cornell. Honestly, if you think about it, how long into a lecture before you are thinking about your car note, the attractive student two seats away, what you need at the grocery, etc. With group work at least you are participating in something, and if you are a good leader you will nudge all members of your group to participate. Here the professor should be circling the room and examining what students are doing--it keeps things moving. Finally, there is class discussion of the material--in my class I use the Socratic method as well as group presentations. Outside of class, the assignments are usually individual. I never give a major grade for group work, but I do assign it: because it is effective. In conclusion, you may like group work; you may hate group work; however, it is representative of your future work environment, and that alone is enough to warrant its use in the classroom.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 12 at 8:13 PM Sun, Jul 12, 09 at 08:13:59 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) You are very apparently on a different page in relation to the meaning of this thread. You are referring to teaching in the classroom setting as a "group" effort, which is indeed highly effective. The intent of this thread relates to group assignments...you state you give individual assignments, which is definitely not the same thing. Group assignments are not typically successful, read the original post by the person who started this thread and you will see it clearly. I can tell you from experience that it is not the most effective means of educating folks in college. Provide the links to the Cornell studies. Folks may be interested in this "subjective" data. How accurate do you think the data is, which is most likely collected from participating "paid" students? Consider demographics, age, socioeconomic background, etc. Maybe you should teach your students the value of disciplining themselves to pay attention to the class discussion. Oh, wait...is this an American school? You may be fighting a losing battle here, bub. Have you read "Crisis in the Classroom: the Remaking of American Education?" Again, subjective information regarding attention spans in the classroom--very relative to age, gender, demographics. You are definitely editorializing. But, you're entitled. Bye.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 11:28 AM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 11:28:19 EDT (In reply to guest2 The Cornell Studies were done 20 years ago. Consider an article written by Sandi Mann and Andrew Robinson http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=37139953&site=ehost-live Consider an editorial--with citations--by Pete Juras Jutras, Pete. "May I have your attention, please?." Clavier Companion 1.2 (Mar. 2009): 4-5. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. [Library name], [City], [State abbreviation]. 13 July 2009 <http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=37585365&site=ehost-live>. There are many more articles that decry the lack of attention in modern students. Group work, if monitored effectively, helps to ameliorate some of the problems of lecture. Again, I would urge students to consider their own experiences (consider your Sunday morning sermon). How long in a typical lecture before you are thinking about everything under the sun except the lecture. How long before you drift back into the lecture. How long before you get back into the knowledge streaming from the mouth of an erudite professor. Personally, I like to lecture--it requires a lot less effort on my part as an instructor. In addition, I love listening to a good lecture, however, it is a passive activity. Group work does require some involvement.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 12:03 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 12:03:39 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) The links you provided require log in names and passwords but it doesn't appear anyone can sign up. So, it remains a mystery and my bet it will be more convoluted than necessary so you are not likely to capture your audience's attention. I still sense your own personal subjective view coming off as an intended objective in your postings. Try looking at it also from the student's point of view. Group assignments, in comparison with individual, are not effective...more frustration, slacking off, and carrying other's responsibilities unjustly are rampant. Attrition rate in programs set up as grouped cohorts is alarmingly high with a high percentage of the remaining individuals going into the individual based programs. If you know your students are tuning you out during lecture, try turning it into a discussion format instead while still "lecturing." As for "group" assignments, my opine still stands and it is still obvious you are on a different page with the intent of this thread. There are other career choices besides teaching that should be considered if you find your students just won't listen to you. I'm done.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 1:17 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 01:17:09 EDT Sure, there's always a few slackers when it comes to group assignments, but I think it's kind of cool getting different perspectives -some of the younger students have a lot going on upstairs and may not get an oppertunity to share if not for in a group setting. Also, the older students can give a different perspective to the younger students. Lets face it, lecture in every class can get boring, give the teacher a chance to listen to what the students have to say. Group assignments or group discussions in college are more possitive in the classroom then not (I think).

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 1:55 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 01:55:13 EDT (In reply to luv2learn_2) Let's "face nothing" in this case. Your grammar sucks. Get lost, you gnat.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 2:34 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 02:34:28 EDT >(In reply to luv2learn_2) Actually, I retract that comment since it is not the most pleasant. You are entitled to your opinion.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: bks33691 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 4:15 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 04:15:31 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) It seems like there are different versions of "group assignments" going on here. Being broken into groups *during class* is not the same thing as what most people would call group assignments. Group assignments, i.e. you are assigned a group and must research, collate and present information with them, are ineffective and frustrating for the good students. Most of the ones I've been in have been difficult for the simple fact that it's very difficult to coordinate schedules outside of class time. I work full time and attend classes three nights a week. How many options do you think I have for getting together to work on a group project? Honestly, I think group projects are created more from professors' laziness than anything else. Who wants to evaluate 40 projects if they can just do 10 and call it a day?

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: DocHamlet Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 6:49 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 06:49:17 EDT (In reply to guest2 Guest28, you said: "I still sense your own personal subjective view coming off as an intended objective in your postings." Alas, I think you are guiltier of this than anyone else. Perhaps it is that YOU do not like group assignments. When counter-evidence is presented, you have many an excuse why it is "wrong," yet you offer no hard data. You also make the claim: "Reality is--higher attrition rates in schools that are based on group learning--people just can't get along and the learning curve differs for most folks" without offering any source. (And by the way, when you correct someone's spelling, perhaps you should not have written a sentence fragment just a line above.) And the use of cohort groups is only one example of group assignments. To attempt to use data on retention-rates in cohort groups is akin to using studies on chess clubs and extrapolating to all team activities. So, I checked a couple of the links. Here are some which do not require passwords. http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/may/12/university-teaching http://www.claviercompanion.com/mar-apr-09/editor/editor1.htm Now, if you want to retain credibility or present some solid arguments, go beyond your individual preference. I use some small group activities in my class. If there is evidence that these do not work, I would be gratified to know it and be able to alter my classes. But I will not do that based on one person's rather poor reasoning.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 8:41 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 08:41:20 EDT (In reply to DocHamlet) Annnnhhhh. Sorry, buster...not guilty here! My subjective view is based on experience and not intended to form a hard core objective such as the other poster was doing. He is definitely editorializing (such as you are seeming to do). I do hate group assignments. Read the original post that started this thread, bub. It's from a student. And I sure as sugar will counter the statements brought forth by the Barnes poster on this thread because that is precisely what he is doing. Read it closer...he is focusing on his own teaching style and not regarding the "assignment" issue that was presented. And my hard data, bub, is real life experience for many years in this exact situation. I am not attempting to bring this to the level this Barnes poster is doing so lay the hell off. Attrition rates are higher in cohort situations, and I really don't need or want to hyperlink this damn thread to death with evidence about it. Look it up yourself, big boy. AND--the fragment was absolutely and directly intended sweetheart and shall remain as the style it was intended to be. Not all of us present ourselves in writing in the sterile manner that you do. Some of us break the rules of content structure to fit a certain style of speaking as if in a regular conversation. Deal with it. Or perhaps that is too ghetto for you? I never tried to use any data regarding retention-rates in cohort groups bub, it's the Barnes poster on this thread that is doing precisely that. That is what other posters on this thread are negating. So your ridiculous chess club analogy as an attempt to be condescending is idiotic and reflects what a stupid jerk you are. And keep your damn links to yourself. Who gives a crap what you "googled up" for this thread. I couldn't give a flying fig what you think of my typing in terms of credibility, bub. I don't give a damn what you do in your classroom either. Any opinion I stated in this thread is based on absolute direct experience and not merely someone else's subjective data. I don't editorialize. Do you? Poor reasoning? A major "screw you" in response, pal. Who in the freaking world do you think you are? Who the hell said you are the ultimate in setting a standard of what poor reasoning is or is not? This is not your classroom. So, you idiot, along with Barnes, read the original post and get off of your high horses. Cohort groups suck and my bet is, that so do you. Actually, why don't you post your real name on here so we can read your student reviews? Or would that be too subjective for you? So, drop dead.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ck5 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Jul 13 at 9:11 PM Mon, Jul 13, 09 at 09:11:39 EDT Go, Jake! Go, Doc! Go, guest!

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: DocHamlet Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 1:45 AM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 01:45:10 EDT (In reply to guest2 My name is Mitchell Fay; students also call me Bucky. I teach at Century College in White Bear Lake, MN. I notice you don't post your name, but we'll leave that for now. Where to start? Do we talk about your childish use of insults? Nah. Use of fragments is fine, although it does seem like you shouldn't then correct someone else's spelling...or is that too ghetto for you? (And why colleges should be like ghettoes is something you could try to explain.) YOU don't like group work. This is clear. YOUR personal experience of however many years doesn't mean much overall. You could be an outlier. Maybe you're a genius like me--in spite of your calling me an idiot, I have the test scores to back up my claim. Maybe you're an extremely unpleasant person. Maybe you just don't work well in groups. But to extend from your experiences to say that this means group work is bad--not just that YOU don't like it--is crap. How's that for less sterile language? It shows a brain working as though it needed new batteries. As to how much I suck, I'm only in a national hall of fame for speech and debate (which is what I teach), was commended by the Army for my outstanding teaching in Kuwait and Afghanistan, was recognized by the Captain of the U.S.S. John C. Stennis for outstanding work, had an award named after me at SUNY Binghamton... Finally, thanks so much for the "drop dead" comment! This is such good proof of your outstanding ability to reason and discuss! I'm certainly glad we have brain-power like yours coupled with your mature ability to talk like a grown-up. You do this forum proud.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 3:31 AM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 03:31:14 EDT YOU don't like group work. This is >clear. YOUR personal experience of however many >years doesn't mean much overall. You could be an >outlier. Maybe you're a genius like me--in spite >of your calling me an idiot, I have the test >scores to back up my claim. Maybe you're an >extremely unpleasant person. Maybe you just >don't work well in groups. But to extend from >your experiences to say that this means group >work is bad--not just that YOU don't like it--is >crap. How's that for less sterile language? It >shows a brain working as though it needed new >batteries. (In reply to DocHamlet) Yeah, well.... guest28 is pretty much a long-standing troll on this forum, but it's a bit naive of any prof to think that group work is appreciated by most students. The bleeding obvious truth is that good students HATE group work, because if they want a good grade they have to do ALL the work. And bad students LOVE group work, because they know the previous statement is true, so they get a free ride. That should tell you something about the value of group projects as a teaching tool. And as to the "that's how the real world works, so it's good experience" argument - well, that's just bull****. The real world will come soon enough. University is not the real world, and it shouldn't pretend to be that. Each student is judged on his or her individual grades, and those grades should be representative of his or her actual work. All good students know that group work sucks. If profs want to use it because it will save them time grading, fine. Just don't pretend there's some noble cause involved.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 7:49 AM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 07:49:50 EDT (In reply to DocHamlet) In reply to DocHamlet) Oh, seriously now. Tooting your own horn, bub, is not going to win you any awards or medals. And, do you seriously think anyone cares about your list of achievements and your desire to broadcast them on a silly blog? And be careful in any assumptions that my achievements are any less. And, I certainly will not post my name you flaming idiot. So, we'll leave that for now and forever. Duh!!!!! The posting of your name indicates an aggressiveness and is intended to intimidate---ain't gonna work here, bub (oops, ghetto talk!!!). My use of insults is a matter of perception and an excellent choice in this case. In fact, a child certainly would not have had that strategized as well as I did. I knew exactly what it would take to expose you. Damn, I'm good. I'll correct any spelling I see fit to...who the hell are you to tell me I should or should not? You are not in military control here, freak. So, enjoy the style! Your twisting of words, especially the ghetto thing, makes you transparent. I did not refer to colleges as ghettoes idiot...reread the post. The reference was to your taste. Writing that is not in sterile context for you appears to be too ghetto for you, hmm? Please, spare me the immature teenage stab at belittling my delivery of the idea. Read every post on here outside of those from you and Barnes. Real time data on a cutesy cyber blog---folks do not like group assignments and I second that in a BIG WAY!!!! But the reason you and Barnes keep denying that is that you both teach in a way that you are scared to change. It works for you and perhaps you cannot handle the idea that it really does not work. My bet is there is something psychological going on here with you. I would wager to say it has something to do with this group assignment thing in the sense that it is not supported by the general consensus. It is more likely that you practice it as a technique in the classroom and cannot see any other way to teach. Since so many folks (relatively speaking) are dissing it (students and teachers alike) on this column and that you are enslaved to your perfectionism, you cannot handle it and must flare your feathers in an attempt to belittle people you do not know. I am most definitely not here to prove my ability to reason and discuss with you. I respond and am a mover and shaker. My presence will motivate you to view other angles of situations...it works like a charm and it's healthy for you. Get you nice and pissed off, eh? Get you to really think about what's brewing in your psyche rather than remaining imprisoned in your own mind and jumping on a band wagon of ideas from other folks when you actually disagree with them. It is apparent through your puffing that you believe you are at a higher level of achievement than myself or other folks on this column. Bub, you are big time wrong and would be excited (yes, excited) and shocked to know my credentials. Awards and medals just don't swing it in cyberland, however. I like to keep myself on the same page with other folks on blogs...just like on the road when driving a car...credentials just do not matter. There is no room for pride in either situation so take your "do this forum proud" comment and stick it in your secret place. And, honestly, I'm starting to burn out from this and won't let myself get involved with some imaginary virtual controlling blog forum poster so I'm going to have to cut the ISP cord. Sorry to disappoint but it's for the best. So, drop dead.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 9:13 AM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 09:13:59 EDT All good students know that group work >sucks. If profs want to use it because it will >save them time grading, fine. Just don't pretend >there's some noble cause involved. (In reply to IcyCalm) It's not fine if profs are using this to save them time, so when that's the real reason behind group work, is it any wonder that the intelligent students are angry? Group work is fine when it's an ensemble, a team, or a troupe - something that depends upon the group for its very being, but I've seen group assignments that are completely absurd. Profs have been told that group work emulates the real world - perhaps sometimes it does, but some profs have bought into that nonsense because they see it as a way to streamline their work. Those are the lazy ones to begin with, so they aren't likely to find a way of designing a useful group project. But ... sometimes a clever prof will design a very savvy project that works well. Our family has earned eight degrees in the past ten years, with two more still in the works, and from all those gabillion classes, I've heard of only one group project that was worthwhile. Buttercup

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: rolypolyfish5 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 9:29 AM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 09:29:22 EDT It's not >fine if profs are using this to save them time, >so when that's the real reason behind group work, >is it any wonder that the intelligent students >are angry? >of designing a useful group project. (In reply to buttercup) I suppose that makes me unintelligent then.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: MathProfJC Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 1:41 PM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 01:41:46 EDT For crying outloud... life is a group project.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: funguy2008 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 2:53 PM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 02:53:26 EDT B: When you leave the University setting most businesses employ some form of group work--get used to it. (In reply to JakeBarnes03) But the big difference is your all going to be in the same time and place 5 days a week. When I was in college I typically had this schedule: 8-920 930-1050 11-1220 2-315 4-625 or 7-930 For 2 days a week. The other 5 days is when I worked my full time 40 hr a week a job. It is often very difficult working around your work/school scedule and others. At least when you do it at work everyone is on the same shift and days, its much easier.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 14 at 6:14 PM Tue, Jul 14, 09 at 06:14:18 EDT >For crying outloud... life is a group project. (In reply to MathProfJC) I don't support the cookie-cutter, one size fits all, group project approach to learning. It ignores the fact that students have different priorities and potentials. The university learning environment already has a built-in problem of pressing out robot students, all with pretty much the same level of thinking. Some students have the potential for higher order thinking and creativity, but teaching those students to think for themselves in order to achieve their greatest potential is a concept that is generally shunned by our education system. Professors aim for measurable outcomes - curved grades, and predictable results. Frankly, I think that it's unethical to deny a student an environment in which they would be most likely to learn. Group work makes some students stupider because they are not able to express their strengths. If that doesn't make sense, I'll give an example later ... I gotta run. Buttercup

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 15 at 11:35 AM Wed, Jul 15, 09 at 11:35:19 EDT (In reply to buttercup) I agree that an individualized learning system would be ideal. Ah, but that is the ideal. The real world is pressing larger class sizes (we are expected to double here) and quantified systems of evaluation are being encouraged. Oh, and let us not forget about online learning economically advantageous. None of these realities are conducive to the present school situation, especially in the economy. I would gladly act as a tutor/mentor for 20 students a semester, but at a state institution that is not possible. While group work is not a significant part of a grade in my courses, it does play a role in giving students immediate feedback, allowing them to see things in a new light, and finally class group work with discussion following is very helpful, especially to the shy students that do not express themselves in larger settings. Group work takes a lot of planning, coordination, and effort to conduct. It is not a way of reducing my work load. I could easily stand up in the room and use my lecture notes/power points, and other teaching tools to more efficiently disseminate knowledge to a sleeping audience. I prefer to engage as many students in the class and the discussion as possible, and maximize what the student is able to take from the class. You can hate group work, but you should try to understand the rationale, and why it is used so frequently in the college classroom today.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 15 at 11:46 AM Wed, Jul 15, 09 at 11:46:21 EDT (In reply to guest2 The links are available through most school libraries. As both a student and a teacher I do have some experience from both points of view. As far as students are concerned, few are enraptured (I am an exception to this) by a lecture. As a TA it was my job to sit and listen for two years. I watched the heads ****ed back, and the snoring begin. I never wanted to see that in my students, and I rarely do. I engage the student in the work at hand: through group work in the classroom and occasionaly outside of the class room. No, I do not weight group work heavily. However, it is useful for students to learn hands on the concepts of group dynamics, communication among peers, and how to present material in an efficient way. Like it or not, group work is part of a good college education.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 15 at 2:02 PM Wed, Jul 15, 09 at 02:02:09 EDT I agree that an >individualized learning system would be ideal. >Ah, but that is the ideal. If that is the ideal, which I agree that it is, then how can classroom teaching approach that ideal? Is group work not a step in the wrong direction by de-individualizing leaning? I understand the problems that you have to deal with in huge classes and the pressures that are put upon you by the administration, but that's not a good reason for doing group work. I don't condemn ALL group work. After all, you won't have a string quartet unless the group meets regularly. Even so, if one member of the quartet doesn't measure up to the group standard that person will be turfed out. The whole group doesn't lower it's standard to that of the slowest member. How'd it be we make a list for evaluating group work assignments? Perhaps you/we can list some aspects of good and bad assignments. I'll start. Feel free to say where/when you disagree with me. GOOD group work assignments ... 1. ad hoc, temporary clustering of three or four students in a classroom for a single session to solve a problem, debate an issue, do an experiment, rehearse passages, practice skills ... ROTTEN group work assignments: 1. group work that is done for the sake of doing group work - assignments that discourage individual thinking, expression and creativity. 2. assignments that do not allow for individual assessment and evaluation. 3. assignments that have to be accomplished outside of classroom time. In the "real world" committee meetings are scheduled months ahead of time, and even then, some members will be absent. 4. assignments that are given with the sole purpose of saving the professor time. 5. assignments that are given to entertain students and keep them from falling asleep. 6. assignments that are given to "teach students how to work in a group". 7. assignment into groups that do not fit the different students' abilities, eg. the string quartet. (In reply to JakeBarnes03)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: Confleis Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 15 at 4:45 PM Wed, Jul 15, 09 at 04:45:02 EDT (In reply to HMM6) WITH A BURNING PASSION. See, Professors always encourage you to tell them when someone was not being ethical about the work or didn't perform. BUT let me tell you my story: See, I was required to work on a group paper, this was a two person group paper. My partner wasn't too clever let's just say. Well, he was clever in other forms I am sure, but not in writing this paper so I took it upon myself because he just wasn't doing much. When it came down to writing the final piece I waited for him so he could join me and "participate" but really I was doing most of the work. He never showed up but I never told on him because I felt bad. He really couldn't do much to help but I was mad that he stood me up. But I didn't want to only tell on him because he stood me up, so I decided to call it fair game.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 15 at 6:07 PM Wed, Jul 15, 09 at 06:07:00 EDT >>(In reply to luv2learn_2) Let's "face >nothing" in this case. Your grammar sucks. > Get lost, you gnat. Actually, I retract >that comment since it is not the most pleasant. >You are entitled to your opinion. (In reply to guest2 Whatever, freak! ;)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 1:54 AM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 01:54:29 EDT 6. assignments that are given to >"teach students how to work in a group". (In reply to buttercup) Indeed! And I wonder if any students have experienced such "teaching". Does anyone remember having been taught how to work in groups?

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 7:32 AM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 07:32:47 EDT (In reply to luv2learn_2) Don't go trying to get all warm and fuzzy on me now...the retraction of the comment wasn't an invitation to be buddies, you freak.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 7:34 AM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 07:34:33 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Sorry, but I'm not going to spend the time and effort going to school libraries to tap into your links. My opinion still stands...try working in a school where cohorts are mandatory... you may then get the picture.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 11:09 AM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 11:09:47 EDT (In reply to guest2 Thank you for reminding me that a big part of my own job involves working on committees. I have no input concerning who is on the committee. I am judged by this work. Most of the time it is mundane stuff, however, I am on one committee that can be exasperating. Still, I have to work on the committee as part of my contract; I have to rearrange my schedule based on the whims of the chair (he is very senior); we have to jointly prepare reports, presentations, etc. My name is part of work with which I do not agree, but I have to try and mitigate the problems as much as possible for the sake of the department. Oh, and my position is split between two departments, so I get it double. In general, as an adult with a full time job (that I love, or I wouldn't be here), I have to do group work. It really is important that I use all those skills that I developed as an undergraduate, graduate, and post-graduate student. All these posts have convinced me that group work, and group assignments are even more essential than I ever imagined. Thanks.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 1:05 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 01:05:41 EDT >(In reply to luv2learn_2) Don't go trying to >get all warm and fuzzy on me now...the retraction >of the comment wasn't an invitation to be >buddies, you freak. (In reply to guest2Not getting warm and fuzzy on you, just letting you know that I KNOW you're not as bad as you think you are buddy... oh, I mean, freak...

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 1:08 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 01:08:26 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) This is odd. You are over-responding in a way that appears you missed the main point (as I have been stating all along). You are thanking specifically me for something that has no bearing to it nor does it make any sense. It is more likely you have an underlying dislike, fear, or intense need for validation regarding the work you do. No one knows who you are or what you do and you don't need to spell it out here. If you have issues, see your supervisor. Here is the initial post from the student who started this thread: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: HMM6 Click to reply to this message Posted Sunday, Jul 5 at 3:39 PM Sun, Jul 5, 09 at 03:39:09 EDT Like, why do teachers make students do that? I RARELY get any good advice or help when I'm partnered with another student. By the way, isn't this supposed to be college not high school? Most of us are over the age of 18 so why do we have to do that? I especially hate being in groups with people that I don't know or has a snotty attitude. I don't know if this is only happening in community colleges but this needs to stop! In closing, I have to cut the ISP cord with you, too. So, write to others on here who may support your view. Try luvtolearn---she is a bit freaky, but she'll grant you some cyber time and understanding, I'm sure. Bye, now.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 1:10 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 01:10:03 EDT (In reply to luv2learn_2) As unoriginal as usual, luv duv. I think we need to graduate you to a super freak.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 1:49 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 01:49:44 EDT (In reply to guest2 I get it. The post concerns the use of group work in college. The student does not feel that they get anything back from the experience, at least nothing positive. I do not like broccili, nor do I care for fish: yet, I eat them regularly because they are good for me. I do not like group work, it takes away from my research and studies (and grading the pile of papers on my desk), but it is part of my job. Without the practical experience of group dynamics, I would have a tougher time. So, yes, thanks for making me realize that group work is more important than I had ever dreamed before this thread started. Your critical insights have made me more certain of my pedagogy, and I plan an increase in assignments as a result.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 3:01 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 03:01:56 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Can you read right into this one, folks? Seriously, Freudian asinine (broccoli head). And spoken like a true scorned "can't have my way" child through the "thank you" response. You did not "over intelligence" the posting responses on here but you do indeed show your true colors. You have unresolved issues, are flaming angry inside, and will not see outside of your own ego boundaries. The students are speaking to you on here...listen to them and learn. Get the angry bloggers to expose themselves...works like a charm! Group assignments suck. Case closed.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 3:55 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 03:55:09 EDT The problem with group assignments -there is always one person more interested in the assignment then the others. This student ends up doing all the work and before he/she knows it, he/she absolutely falls in love with the subject or group project. Don't get me wrong, I still think group assignments are good (teaches a person to work with other), however, it appears the ones REALLY learning are usually 'the ONE' that does all the work...

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 10:57 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 10:57:56 EDT (In reply to luv2learn_2) Couldn't agree more, and later in life the ones who lead the group (hopefully to glory) will be the leaders in life outside of college. They will also get more of what they want in life, because they have learned to get it. Are grades really the ultimate reward? No. The grade is nothing more than validation of hard work, creativity, and initiative. The real reward is what you learn from the experience. The slackers, unless married to the bosses child, will be shunted off into dead end jobs while the leaders will have much more interesting and productive lives.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 16 at 11:08 PM Thu, Jul 16, 09 at 11:08:24 EDT (In reply to guest2 Quaint, and long ago discarded theories of Freud aside, a seething anger burning inside of me there is not. Back to ad hominem attacks again? Wow. Yes, students are expressing displeasure at being forced to carry out assignments that they do not care for. That does not change the efficacy and importance of the work. Do you pay your fees just for your "B"'s or are you trying to get an education, and learn something. Should we compartmentalize education further, or should all facilitators work to help students achieve full potential using the best teaching techniques/tools that are available? As the old saying goes "No pain, no gain."

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 2:40 AM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 02:40:45 EDT Couldn't agree more, >and later in life the ones who lead the group >(hopefully to glory) will be the leaders in life >outside of college. They will also get more of >what they want in life, because they have learned >to get it. Are grades really the ultimate >reward? No. The grade is nothing more than >validation of hard work, creativity, and >initiative. The real reward is what you learn >from the experience. The slackers, unless >married to the bosses child, will be shunted off >into dead end jobs while the leaders will have >much more interesting and productive lives. (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Stop pretending to be a prof. No one who posts such inane platitudes could be a prof, let alone offer advice about teaching. These "leaders" you speak will not learn hard work, creativity or initiative during group assignments. They have this already. You are also missing the point that the slackers do get what they want in life. They don't want "more interesting and productive lives". They want the free ride.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 7:56 AM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 07:56:35 EDT (In reply to IcyCalm) You are correct in the assessment that initiative, and hard work are usually--though not always--present when a student enters college. Many students are late bloomers, and many come from HS environments that are less than optimal. I have to deal with them all. What you learn through group work is how to manage group dynamics (getting the slackers to contribute), and interpersonal skills. While these skills may already be part of a student's repertoire, it is good to hone those same skills in a less stressful environment than the world of the employed. As far as the free rider principle is concerned, it is true that they will manage to hang on--until there is an economic downturn, and a shake-up.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ginamarie5000 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 8:34 AM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 08:34:55 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Do you live in a bubble? Although articulated well, your response has the feel of assumption. I agree with you though in the ideal sense of the word and world but I have to disagree in the real sense of the word and world. In other words, the free ride principle...those folks do hang on forever...they use the welfare and social security system. And don't forget all those special needs students around today...how do they manage in a group?

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 8:55 AM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 08:55:30 EDT (In reply to ginamarie5000)Well, hopefully even a college slacker wants more than welfare. As far as special needs are concerned, my daughter suffers from Aspergers (an autism spectrum disorder). She is fortunate because she is exceptionally intelligent, reading about 3 or 4 years ahead of her age group, (many Aspergers kids are exceptionally smart) but struggles when it comes to behavior and group activity. It is even more critical that she learn to deal with others. In fact, many of the students that I teach struggle with group dynamics: that is why it is critical for students to be engaged in group work in college.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 9:19 AM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 09:19:15 EDT What you learn through group work is how to >manage group dynamics (getting the slackers to >contribute), and interpersonal skills. (In reply to JakeBarnes03) This may be the goal of group work, but this goal is rarely achieved because many professors lack the training, initiative and ability to properly supervise the groups. Many students have a persistent, very negative response to group work, and their valid complaints are proffered over and over again. They are reiterating characteristics of the social phenomenon that has been called the Ringleman Effect - a group project requires less effort than the sum of the members' individual efforts. All of the individuals in a group will perform below their potential. How do students manage free riders within their groups? For many reasons the group will most often carry the free rider without taking steps to rectify the situation because of: lack of support from the professor, unwillingness to create a fuss, time constraints, false expectations that aren't revealed until it's too late, sympathy for those who can't contribute, gender and cultural issues ... That reduces the individual efforts even further, creating a downward spiral of effort. Another type of student who is hindered by group work is one who values individuality and creativity, has strong personal feelings on issues, extraordinary insights, or exceptional abilities - group projects are often designed to mold all its members toward a commonality that will dull its brightest members. The brightest ones will often sit back and let the group go its way because they know that they won't be recognised and compensated for their efforts. For example, the composer Diabelli sent a few bars of music around to 51 other composers in Vienna, asking them to write a short piece of music based on that theme. It was to be a group effort that would form a set of variations. One of the composers who received the theme was Beethoven. How do you think Beethoven responded to this group project? If you don't know, take a guess and look it up. Group work is fine in university if the course is "Group Work 101". After that it has questionable benefits for student learning. It has been abused by professors and administrations for the past 30 years. Buttercup

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ginamarie5000 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 11:50 AM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 11:50:37 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) If your students and child are struggling so much in groups, why do you continue to force them to stay in the groups...why not offer an alternative based on their individual needs? It wouldn't be isolating them from society...but rather providing them with the opportunity to strengthen their individual talents and skills along with self-esteem so they can more readily communicate and work with others.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 12:13 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 12:13:05 EDT (In reply to buttercup) Okay, but more than 70 years of educational studies on learning clearly show that most students learn more in a group dynamic than they do individually. Are there exceptions? Sure. Unfortunately, we cannot individualize education to accommodate all the students in our over-packed classes. We have to work with what works for most students, not the individual. We cannot teach based off student likes and dislikes either. I hated taking Botany, but ultimately I benefited from the experience. Again, to be fair, I never create a project that constitutes a major grade in a course. Conversely, I can tell you that more often than not students rise to the occasion and do very well as a group. The slackers have long since vanished into the ether before the project is due. Ultimately, when we talk about learning styles, and teaching styles there is one teacher, and 30 to 75 students (depending on what I am teaching) and the students must do what they have done for the past 12+ years and adapt to the teacher. It just doesn't work the other way around.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 12:36 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 12:36:35 EDT (In reply to ginamarie5000) She completes all academic requirements for her grade level before the end of October every year. She struggles with fine motor skills, and the ability to complete two tasks in a row. She struggles with the mundane, not the difficult. She literally is the person that you must tell to come in out of the rain. There is an innocence about her that is wonderful, but also frightening as a parent. When she is stressed, she tries to retreat into her own world. It creates real problems for her now. Children are great right now, they are always looking out for her: will that always be the case? Hardly. Besides, most therapy for children like her indicates more, not less group activity. Finally, we work with the resource department to configure an IEP for her several times a year to ensure that she gets what she needs. Do my wife and I understand this desire to withdraw from the world? Heck yes, we were very much like her as children only there was no name for it. (Many academics exhibit these same qualities) No one understood how to cope with the issues that we faced, and we just had to "tough it out."

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 12:38 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 12:38:36 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Sorry, wrong forum.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ginamarie5000 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 12:49 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 12:49:21 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Not quite sure how that relates to my response and comments but I'm easy.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 1:34 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 01:34:13 EDT (In reply to ginamarie5000) We are following all the recommended treatments for my daughter. Separating and isolating special needs children is not helpful. The most important is keeping her in as many group, and social settings as possible and working with her resource teacher on socialization skills. Allowing her to withdraw to "Bikini Bottom" does not help. Teaching her how to manage her life as a member of society does help.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ginamarie5000 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 2:04 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 02:04:32 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Okay, I hear ya...but it still doesn't relate to what I wrote. I didn't suggest isolating anyone as your response implies. In fact...my comments are really focused on the average student. But I understand that your daughter is important to you. I think the picture is become clearer though with your comments as to why you approach education like you do.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 17 at 7:34 PM Fri, Jul 17, 09 at 07:34:42 EDT The most important is keeping >her in as many group, and social settings as >possible and working with her resource teacher >on socialization skills. (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Awh! I see. That changes everything. Keep rooting for group work. Buttercup

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: MathProfJC Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 23 at 7:43 AM Thu, Jul 23, 09 at 07:43:45 EDT I meant that life is FULL of things we don't like! Teachers have different reasons for giving group projects. Who are all of you to judge that reason? I don't give many, but I do give them in certain classes. I really don't care if they want to do them or not. Students don't want to take exams, does that stop us from giving exams? No. Do we give exams just to irritate you? No, although some of you think this is our soul purpose in life. Do we give group projects to just get out of working hard and irritating you? NO. LOL. If that was my soul purpose, I'd have a sorry life.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 23 at 9:58 AM Thu, Jul 23, 09 at 09:58:50 EDT >Teachers have different reasons for giving >group projects. Who are all of you to judge that >reason? I don't give many, but I do give them in >certain classes. I really don't care if they >want to do them or not. (In reply to MathProfJC) Ok, but then what are your reasons? The only reason that I can think of that justifies assigning group work, given all of the drawbacks, is saving time for the prof - and Buttercup doesn't think too highly of that one. If there are better ones, I'd like to hear them.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: justbeingnosie Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 23 at 10:05 AM Thu, Jul 23, 09 at 10:05:24 EDT (In reply to HMM6) The problem with group assignments is that you always find the two or three that think they know it all. Eventually, manipulating the whole group in to doing everything thier way and forming some sort of pat (Click). They tend to leave the rest of us in the dark, thus, causing the rest of us to wonder what the hell is going on for the assignment. They tend to take nobody elses opinions but those in the pat (Click), which can be very confusing and frustrating.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: justbeingnosie Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 23 at 10:20 AM Thu, Jul 23, 09 at 10:20:25 EDT (In reply to IcyCalm) I took an Interpersonal Communication class that consisted of a group assignment. One of the girls in particular manipulated everything in her favior. It was as if she was incharge of the whole thing, which nobody seemed to be bothered by the fact, except me. It got to the point to where she, actually, tried to oust me from the whole project. I was becomming extremely aggitated. (Not liking this person too much) The instructor said that this was good because Interpersonal Communication was to help people learn how to interact in the real world. She also said, "I would be faced with more of that kind of conflict in the workforce". I could see her point, but I still did not like the ordeal or conflict. (Very frustrating)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ck5 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 23 at 11:49 PM Thu, Jul 23, 09 at 11:49:59 EDT (In reply to justbeingnosie) Damn those pat click ousters! They have such big ideas of their own, like success.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 24 at 8:15 AM Fri, Jul 24, 09 at 08:15:31 EDT The only reason that I can think of >that justifies assigning group work, given all of >the drawbacks, is saving time for the prof - and >Buttercup doesn't think too highly of that one. > (In reply to IcyCalm) Just to clarify, I'm in favour of saving time for professors, or rather I'm in favour of them using their time efficiently. Many professors are totally clued out about matters pedagogical and couldn't design a decent group assignment to save their lives. I'm not an advocate of mass production style teaching, so by my own definition, group work, as a concept, is a failure. Buttercup

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: rolypolyfishhed Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 24 at 2:38 PM Fri, Jul 24, 09 at 02:38:13 EDT I took an Interpersonal >Communication class that consisted of a group >assignment. One of the girls in particular >manipulated everything in her favior. It was as >if she was incharge of the whole thing, which >nobody seemed to be bothered by the fact, except >me. It got to the point to where she, actually, >tried to oust me from the whole project. I was >becomming extremely aggitated. (Not liking this >person too much) The instructor said that this >was good because Interpersonal Communication was >to help people learn how to interact in the real >world. She also said, "I would be faced with >more of that kind of conflict in the workforce." I agree with your professor. >I could see her point, but I still did not like >the ordeal or conflict. (Very frustrating) I don't know many people who do enjoy conflict, except for a few who go out of their way to provoke it. But as much as you disliked the project, it's good that you saw the value in it. (In reply to justbeingnosie)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 24 at 2:53 PM Fri, Jul 24, 09 at 02:53:58 EDT (In reply to IcyCalm) >Ok, but then what are >your reasons? The only reason that I can think of >that justifies assigning group work, given all of >the drawbacks, is saving time for the prof - and >Buttercup doesn't think too highly of that one. > >If there are better ones, I'd like to hear >them. I'm a lab instructor, and historically labs are done with a partner, probably because it's just physically impossible to manipulate equipment, record data, etc. all by yourself in many situations. Depending on the lab, sometimes partners hand in a single lab report for both(all); other times each partner hands in a separate report. Either way, this probably counts as "group work". Here are some of my observations: 1) First term, first year is the toughest since students start the labs not knowing anyone else in the course. As the years progress, and students are more familiar with all of the people in their programs, they more easily choose partners. 2) About 10% of partnerships go badly, with one partner complaining to me about the other. 3) In upper years, often partners work together for SEVERAL courses, which indicates that some partnerships work really well. (I'd say 10% - 20%) 4) Even in first year, with one course in first term and a following course in second term, if two partners from first term are in the same lab section second term, probably half or more stay together for the second course. 5) In the first term, first year lab, about 40% of students said their partners were knowledgeable about the course AND did a fair share of the work. In the second term, that rises to about 2/3. 6) The amount of discussion about how best to perform and experiment between partners is WAY more than there would be between students and me or the lab demonstrators. It's also much more of a give and take, rather than wanting the "right answer". 7) In upper year courses with an odd number of students, given the choice between having a group of 3 or working alone, it is rare to have students volunteer to go alone. All of these things together suggest to me that there is value in this, even though there are problems. I'm constantly looking for ways to deal with the problem situations which arise. Many of these points suggest that most students feel working with a partner is better than working alone, so i think that is significant.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: justbeingnosie Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 24 at 4:31 PM Fri, Jul 24, 09 at 04:31:08 EDT (In reply to rolypolyfishhed) That is so true. Thank You!

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: RLeabo2008 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Jul 25 at 6:42 PM Sat, Jul 25, 09 at 06:42:16 EDT >Like, why do teachers make students do that? I >RARELY get any good advice or help when I'm >partnered with another student. By the way, isn't >this supposed to be college not high school? Most >of us are over the age of 18 so why do we have to >do that? I especially hate being in groups with >people that I don't know or has a snotty >attitude. I don't know if this is only happening >in community colleges but this needs to stop! (In reply to HMM6) There are times I prefer to work by myself, because I have such a good, clear idea & would rather do it myself and get credit for it-others would just try to muck it all up. However, there are times when I like working with people if I am in a class for my major. I think its more fun doing groupwork in your major class, because you are working with people who are obviously sharing the same passions as you, because they too are in the "education" major for example. I don't like having to work with people on a project in say, a gen ed class, because no one really cares & we are only there for the credit, so chances are it would end up with everyone sitting there doing nothing. We once took a group quiz for my Communications class, it was so much fun. The quiz was a scratchoff, like lottery tickets and we had fun just being there, even if we got the answer wrong it was fun. I got a 3.3 in that class, so I must have done something right.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 26 at 3:39 AM Sun, Jul 26, 09 at 03:39:35 EDT >I'm a lab >instructor, and historically labs are done with a >partner, probably because it's just physically >impossible to manipulate equipment, record data, >etc. all by yourself in many situations. >Depending on the lab, sometimes partners hand in >a single lab report for both(all); other times >each partner hands in a separate report. Either >way, this probably counts as "group work". Yes, that occurred to me too, but labs are not the sort of assignments people typically think of as "group work". I think the reason for this is that shared lab assignments are usually highly structured. In my experience (as a student and TA), once the post-lab assignments become more involved (with the student doing his own literature review for an introduction, etc.), typically the students will work in teams in the lab, but write their own reports. Possibly this is very different between schools, though. >5) In the >first term, first year lab, about 40% of students >said their partners were knowledgeable about the >course AND did a fair share of the work. In the >second term, that rises to about 2/3. This doesn't surprise me - I would expect many of the students who are coasting not to make it to the second term. 6) The >amount of discussion about how best to perform >and experiment between partners is WAY more than >there would be between students and me or the lab >demonstrators. It's also much more of a give and >take, rather than wanting the "right >answer". Yes, BUT - they have to do the work immediately, in the lab, in a tightly constrained time period. They have to work more efficiently and more constructively, and they can't afford to screw it up. If this were (for example) a presentation for a sociology course, you would be looking at a very different dynamic - don't you agree? (In reply to phys_lab)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: DarkEntity Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 26 at 10:42 AM Sun, Jul 26, 09 at 10:42:47 EDT (In reply to luv2learn_2) I love you luv. I actually thought that my presence here would or have destroy you. On the contrary, I can see your intellectual ways evolving at mesmerizing levels like never before. I feel so proud of you. Perhaps that was my intention all along... ****For even in the bible, evil is used along for the purposes and fulfillment of good.****

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: justbeingnosie Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 26 at 11:13 AM Sun, Jul 26, 09 at 11:13:24 EDT (In reply to DarkEntity) I'm just curious. Where is that at in the Bible?

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: cactusflinthead Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 26 at 11:19 AM Sun, Jul 26, 09 at 11:19:15 EDT (In reply to IcyCalm) The biggest difference to me between science lab assignments requiring more than one person and the open-ended nature of most humanities group projects is the structured nature of the lab assignment. Yeah, sometimes you get saddled with some clueless bastard that doesn't show, contributes nothing and is generally a pain in the ass, but there is a generally a shorter time frame to tolerate them. A speech, paper or other research project that requires more than one participant to contribute to the thoroughly fuzzy goal can be far more extended. I'll give an example of both scenarios. First year chem. My lab partner was sometimes present and sometimes not. When he was there he wasn't a liability but I did not count on his participation. We managed to muddle along and I got out of there with a B. Speech was another story. Out of five participants one did absolutely nothing. I think I saw her in class exactly twice. She asked us in an email if she could still participate AFTER the speech was ready to be presented. I consulted the prof and he kicked it back to me, with a comment along the lines of, "This is why we do group projects, you get to decide whether or not to include them." Thanks for nothing. I told her as politely as I could that it was too late to do anything. It sucked and even though I have fired people before it was no less painful than if their job was on the line.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Jul 26 at 1:30 PM Sun, Jul 26, 09 at 01:30:24 EDT >(In reply to luv2learn_2) I love you luv. I know you do DE. That will be your downfall.. ;) I >actually thought that my presence here would or >have destroy you. On the contrary, I can see your >intellectual ways evolving at mesmerizing levels >like never before. I feel so proud of you. >Perhaps that was my intention all along... > I detect a slight compliment with this statement...I'll go with that. Thank you. ****For even in the bible, evil is used >along for the purposes and fulfillment of >good.**** (In reply to DarkEntity) You are quoting from the bible? I guess 'they' do say that Sa_an knows the bible inside and out and twists the words to confuse...maybe that's your intention???

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: koosh28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Jul 28 at 4:03 PM Tue, Jul 28, 09 at 04:03:35 EDT (In reply to HMM6) Well, believe it or not... in the real world, when you get a job, very rarely are you going to have a position where you never work with someone else. Even more, work with a group of people you like. It's important to understand how to delegate responsibility in a group and work with others, or how to "play fair" with others. If you don't like to do group projects do not go into business, you'll hate it!

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 29 at 9:58 AM Wed, Jul 29, 09 at 09:58:31 EDT (In reply to cactusflinthead and IcyCalm) >The biggest difference to >me between science lab assignments requiring more >than one person and the open-ended nature of most >humanities group projects is the structured >nature of the lab assignment. You both pointed this out, and I think it's valid. It occurs to me that it may be possible to improve group projects in general by following some of those principles. What do you think? >A speech, paper or other research project that >requires more than one participant to contribute >to the thoroughly fuzzy goal can be far more >extended. One thing I've done to help with this on lab research projects is to tell students they have the OPTION of handing in one report for both, or they can hand in separate reports. The mark goes to whoever is named on the report. That way if someone collected data with a slacker partner, the worker can hand in a report alone, and the slacker will either hand in one or get zero, but if partners can agree on a single report then they can presumably save work. It seems to reduce some of those problems. I guess I'm trying to figure out if group work can be improved in general, since, as many have pointed out, it is a reality in the "real world", and can have some educational value if done well.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 29 at 11:11 AM Wed, Jul 29, 09 at 11:11:49 EDT >You both pointed this out, and I >think it's valid. It occurs to me that it may be >possible to improve group projects in general by >following some of those principles. What do you >think? When I chose the word "structured" to describe lab reports, what I really meant is that much less of the work is of the "independent research" variety than in the types of assignments that typically go with group work. To turn a joint research paper or joint presentation into the kind of team effort that a lab report requires would be to expect a great deal less independent thinking on the part of each student. I don't think that would be the best way to approach the problem. >One thing I've done >to help with this on lab research projects is to >tell students they have the OPTION of handing in >one report for both, or they can hand in separate >reports. The mark goes to whoever is named on the >report. That way if someone collected data with a >slacker partner, the worker can hand in a report >alone, and the slacker will either hand in one or >get zero, but if partners can agree on a single >report then they can presumably save work. It >seems to reduce some of those problems. This is a good idea, and one I would have taken advantage of in my courses. However, if the assignment runs for several weeks or months (which has been my experience in a few courses), you risk students finding out at short notice that they will not be graded on an assignment. Of course, it would be their fault for not checking in.... >I >guess I'm trying to figure out if group work can >be improved in general, since, as many have >pointed out, it is a reality in the "real >world", and can have some educational value if >done well. I disagree with you here - if group work in itself is to have "some educational value", then the profs must actually teach how to work in groups. They don't. They just give an assignment to more than one person, and let the students figure it out. This is not education, it is merely experience, and there is no guarantee that any of the students will learn anything about HOW to work in groups from these experiences. (In reply to phys_lab)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 29 at 12:01 PM Wed, Jul 29, 09 at 12:01:01 EDT (In reply to IcyCalm) >Of course, it would be their fault >for not checking in.... That's kind of what I point out. It's up to each person to make sure their potentially harder working partner is satisfied with their contribution. Otherwise, as you point out, there could be a rude awakening. >I disagree with you here - if group work in >itself >is to have "some educational value", then the >profs must actually teach how to work in groups. >They don't. They just give an assignment to more >than one person, and let the students figure it >out. This is not education, it is merely >experience, and there is no guarantee that any of >the students will learn anything about HOW to >work in groups from these experiences. > True enough. I wonder if anyone has experience with such instruction on HOW to work in groups, especially if it was helpful. I'd guess it should also involve ongoing formal monitoring of how the groups are working. I'm hoping SOMEBODY out there has seen something more effective than the bad examples that everyone has seen.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: taylorconnie1 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Jul 29 at 1:24 PM Wed, Jul 29, 09 at 01:24:07 EDT (In reply to HMM6)Because colleges are sensitive to the needs of business and industry and this is one of the major requirements of those groups.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: IcyCalm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 30 at 1:29 AM Thu, Jul 30, 09 at 01:29:26 EDT >That's kind of what I point out. It's >up to each person to make sure their potentially >harder working partner is satisfied with their >contribution. Otherwise, as you point out, there >could be a rude awakening. I guess my main worry about this is that while individual lab reports are typically worth very little, a group project will often carry the same value as the entire lab section... That's a tough way to learn that lesson. >True enough. I wonder if >anyone has experience with such instruction on >HOW to work in groups, especially if it was >helpful. I'd guess it should also involve ongoing >formal monitoring of how the groups are working. >I'm hoping SOMEBODY out there has seen something >more effective than the bad examples that >everyone has seen. The irony here is that unless students are taught how to collaborate effectively, the skills they pick up from group projects are mainly about being individually successful in a group setting, at whatever cost. Hardly the point, is it? (In reply to phys_lab)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: cowgirlbebop Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 30 at 3:59 PM Thu, Jul 30, 09 at 03:59:27 EDT (In reply to HMM6) You are suppose to be placed in real world situations to complete an assignment. In college being grouped together is a gamble sometimes like the worst case scenario of your real world employment. Getting snotty people that do not work for the good of the group is pretty real world... On the few jobs I have gone through.. group work is great if your boss knows how to hire quality.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Jul 30 at 5:00 PM Thu, Jul 30, 09 at 05:00:00 EDT (In reply to cowgirlbebop) I wonder when going to university to get an education was replaced with going to university to prepare for the 'real world'.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: DocRon Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 5:50 AM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 05:50:50 EDT (In reply to HMM6)I'm a college instructor who has undergraduate and graduate degrees in business. I've also worked for many years in the business world, doing a number of jobs in various fields. In addition, I've taught subjects from accounting to web design and many places. And I've done some subbing in the public schools. So I've seen things from all sides. And let me explain to you the reasoning behind our using group work. But before I do, let me say that I can understand many of you students not particularily enjoying it. After all, you may be partnered with someone who's not helpful, working hard, or even knowledgeable. And the assignment itself may be boring, seemingly unrelated, or even busywork. Well, welcome to the real world! You see, in the workplace, it's not uncommon to be given busywork. Nor is it uncommon to be working with someone who's not helpful. And there are employees who avoid working hard whenever possible. Plus, you have workers who don't know their jobs, yet still work there for whatever reason. So part of the reason for group work is to help prepare you for the world that awaits you outside the classroom. And yes, it's part of our job as instructors to make sure our students can handle whatever is thrown at them when they graduate. So that's a part of our reason, prepping you for the working world. Secondly, it's a way to get you to interact more with other people in the class. Too often, students either prefer to work by themselves and/or form their own small group. In other words, they either don't interact with anyone, or interact with a very selected few. How many times have you seen students sitting in the same seat over and over again? Working with the same people over and over again? You see, it's very common for students to get into a routine that will rarely change. Well in the workplace, change is part of busines! For example, people come and go. Employees switch desks, offices, and departments. New equipment replaces old. Policies may change. So part of group work is to get students used to some change. In other words, break the routiness student will often fall into. And to get them used to working with other people with whom they normally wouldn't. Diversity is also important in the workplace! At some point in your working life, you will be interacting, working for, and/or supervising people who are different from yourself. They'll have different backgrounds, levels of education, experiences, etc. And to be successful, you must be able to interact and work well with them. So we'll use group work as a way to help prepare you for this. Now of course, the successfulness of our using group assignments all depends upon how we, as individual instructors, do it. For example, I try my very best to make my assignments something "real" that students would find more interesting. And not something that can easily be done. In other words, it does take some thinking and a good command of the material in order to complete. I'll also walk around the room to sound students out and see how they're doing. And ask them follow-up questions or mention something they may not be taking into consideration. So my group work is always very interactive! Over the years, I've seen that this makes a big difference because students are more engaged and can relate to it better. Now do students always get along with each other? Does one student work hard, while another one just sits there doing nothing or something unrelated to the assignment? Yes. But once again, welcome to the real world! In the workplace, there are employees who make big bucks, yet don't seem to be working. Or a coworker who takes it easy while you're working your butt off. When I worked as an Admin Assistant, I was constantly busy and being given work by my bosses! Yet other assistants in the office, who were doing the same exact job as I was, were always sitting around with not much work to do. Didn't seem fair, but that's the reality of the workplace! At another company, I supported multiple salespeople. Well, there was one who was out shopping more than being in the office. So I did most of the work, yet got paid much less than my boss! Once again, doesn't sound fair, but that's reality. Students need to understand that it's our job as instructors to make sure you have a command of the subject matter. But it's also our job to make sure you're ready for the working world. And will be prepared for whatever life after college will throw you.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 9:16 AM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 09:16:20 EDT (In reply to buttercup) >I wonder when going >to university to get an education was replaced >with going to university to prepare for the 'real >world'. I'd say rather than "was replaced with" it should be "included". I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, and in fact at some level an education isn't complete without some concrete grasp of the pressures, limitations, and frustrations of the real world. How best to provide that as part of the education process is the challenge.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 12:58 PM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 12:58:14 EDT (In reply to DocRon) Okay, Doc. It works for you but seriously think about what is being set out into society from these schools. People who don't understand the core material and cannot think for themselves but rather they have learned how to hang on when in a group because otherwise it will cost them their grade or paycheck. And they get real real good at it.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: TeacherLady Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 9:05 PM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 09:05:52 EDT Hmmm. I'm interested in all this. Group work takes me much longer to prepare and grade than exams/quizzes or individual assignments, so no dice there. And yeah, I agree with the teachers who say that group work is more like the real world than individual grades are. Trust me on this one, if you haven't worked on a faculty committee. Most of the time, some workhorses are always pulling the whole thing, while the committee as a whole gets equal credit. But I do think students are right to resent getting graded equally for efforts that may be unequal, when GPAs count in this world. What I do is give each student an individual grade for a group project. The project gets an overall grade, but the parts are graded individually, and the individual parts are most of the grade. Students who end up doing someone else's work to get the *overall* grade up to par get points that are docked off of the person who flaked out. I don't tell students ahead of time that that's what I'll do, but I do ask them to fill out and turn in worksheets and timesheets , and to note on them if they have taken over any part of the project. Then I use those to figure out how to allocate individual points. It's not perfect, but it's the best compromise I've come up with. What do you students think?

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: TeacherLady Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 9:10 PM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 09:10:03 EDT Oh yeah -- I forgot to say that I also require face-to-face group meetings only during class time because otherwise commuters, student workers, and student-parents are at a disadvantage.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 9:46 PM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 09:46:34 EDT I'd say rather than >"was replaced with" it should be "included". >I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, and >in fact at some level an education isn't complete >without some concrete grasp of the pressures, >limitations, and frustrations of the real world. >How best to provide that as part of the education >process is the challenge. (In reply to phys_lab) I really don't believe that it ought to be part of the formal education process, at least not after secondary school. There are plenty of better opportunities for this kind of learning, in the real world, outside of the university classroom - school yard games, team sports, siblings, 4-H, Scouts, summer jobs, Sunday School, flat mates, clubs, primary school ... Universities ought to be training for leadership and innovation, not for conformity. If we keep up with the nonsense of "training students for the real world", our students will be left in the dust of those who are receiving an education with the goal of mastering the subject material. But wait ... that's already happening. We're losing sight of education's role in the knowledge economy. Buttercup

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 9:46 PM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 09:46:42 EDT I would say group assignments may be a major plus in say an acting or drama class. The students may be so good the teacher does not even realize when the students are really acting or not???

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Jul 31 at 10:02 PM Fri, Jul 31, 09 at 10:02:23 EDT Sometimes a student or two can be so good the entire class is fooled...

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: bks33691 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Aug 3 at 8:42 AM Mon, Aug 3, 09 at 08:42:33 EDT (In reply to DocRon) This is well thought out, however I disagree with most of it. I've been working in the non-professional and professional worlds for more than 20 years, and I am a full-time student as well. I have never had a group assignment that reflects the collaborative work I've done in the office. If the goal of a group assignment is to mimic what professionals do in the office, they would need to have their group meetings take place during class time; when everyone is scheduled to be there already. They would also need to have milestones and a project leader (the instructor) monitoring progress. These are constants in the business world that I, frankly, have never seen in an academically-driven group assignment. Also, saying that you have to get used to busywork because you will be given it in the office is misleading. If you are being given busywork, your employer is using its resources ineffectively. I do a variety of things throughout the day, some tedious and some interesting, but I would not call of any of work just for the sake of something to do. Forcing students to interact with students not of their choosing is also just a measure of control the instructor can exert at his own whim. It is true that in a professional setting you do interact with various individuals and teams, however there is always a breaking-in period. Arbitrarily assigning groups and changing them within a 15-week (or shorter) semester doesn't really allow for the natural group dynamic to happen. The group stays in its "getting to know you" phase, and never becomes fully productive and effective.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Aug 3 at 12:36 PM Mon, Aug 3, 09 at 12:36:22 EDT (In reply to bks33691) Very perceptive outlook based on actual experience...well-balanced response and brilliantly stated! This is "what I'm talkin' about!!!!!!" Those who are in such extreme support of group work in academics probably teach it all the time and get the bulk of their income from doing so. They cannot see it objectively--the big picture, that is--that it does not produce a well-rounded, self-reliant individual with developed thought processes in specialized areas. We cannot exclude, however, the percent of folks who indeed come out of these programs well-rounded and are independent thinkers and doers. But those who do not simply learn how to "take a free ride" to a good grade or paycheck...just find your niche in the group/team and hang on by a thread. Can you imagine Asians doing academic group work as the main method of their learning process--I highly doubt it. My bet is it would drastically change the statistics on the learning curve. We must not inhibit the growth of others as they are developing academically by forcing them in group situations that disrupt focus. Let them learn on an individual basis so they can contribute to group/team situations in an optimal fashion. Done.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: JakeBarnes03 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Aug 4 at 2:17 PM Tue, Aug 4, 09 at 02:17:13 EDT (In reply to guest2 The goal of many asian cultures is to achieve harmony and consensus. To that end much of the learning process in other countries--especially Asia--depend on a team approach. The group/team approach to education or employment is actually critical. If anything, asians are more committed to the group dynamic than we are in this country.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: guest28 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Aug 4 at 3:06 PM Tue, Aug 4, 09 at 03:06:14 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) Jakers--you're a pretty hard headed fella---asian cultures do not use the same group educational cohort system that americans do. Now, go do some internet research and post your links. My bet is that you have total rule at home and in your classroom. You're a tuff nut and my bet is students whisper to one another not to disagree with you. I gotta go.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: DoctorJ1 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Aug 13 at 12:09 AM Thu, Aug 13, 09 at 12:09:53 EDT (In reply to guest2The problem is you are being teamed up with "social loafers" and it is not always easy or comfortable to depend on others' efforts for your grade. You will end up doing most of the work yourself. I had a Psych prof who had a date for voting slackers out of our project. We did group tests in one math class and the slackers knew nothing. The whole class depended on one or two people to know everything! But then they want an A because they "tried." I missed the effort that the slackers claim they utilized. I wish they would try. We could learn more and there would be less frustration Unfortunately I do see this more at community colleges. Just my observations...

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: bks33691 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Aug 13 at 6:22 PM Thu, Aug 13, 09 at 06:22:13 EDT (In reply to DoctorJ1) Oh, they didn't want an A for trying. They wanted an A because they registered for the class...

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: RockChick78 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Aug 14 at 11:33 PM Fri, Aug 14, 09 at 11:33:50 EDT (In reply to HMM6)the thing that really bugs me about group work is that I always end up in a group with a bunch of slackers, so I end up doing all the work just to keep my grade up...its really annoying...

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: rrmmktcajpbn123 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Aug 21 at 7:11 AM Fri, Aug 21, 09 at 07:11:42 EDT (In reply to HMM6) My professor asked his students to do a personality test and put all different personality students together to form a project team. His purpose of doing that it to have different personality people work together so we will have a team with different ideas. I am an adult who has been working for more than ten years so I notice the different of these kinds of teams and the work teams in real workforce. 1. For teams in the real workforce, there are usually managers there and so everything runs better even though the managers are not good enough. 2. In most cases, the employers usually have preference of a specific kind of workers. So when they are hiring people, there are usually some similarities among team members. So there shouldn't be that wide diversity as the project teams my professor formed. 3. In real work teams, there are usually some team members with more experience or older ages whereas the teams formed in school are all the students who have very little work experiences and young ages. I notice there is a big difference to work with them and to work with people who have many work experiences. I am not sure if his idea actually works. Theoreotically he is right. But there are usually some differences between actual outcomes and a theoreotically correct idea. I had a prof who made weekly quiz to students. Theoreotically, this is a good way to motivate students study reguarly. But after he has tried it several terms, he stopped doing this and see the difference. He noticed the class average of haveing weekly quiz or not is about the same. He noticed the students who gained poor grades on their records usually gained poor grades in his class who had qeekly quiz or without weekly quiz. This appears to good grade students as well. So eventually he found out this method did not affect the grades of students and the class averages. So he stopped.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ronnielovessara Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Aug 21 at 11:35 PM Fri, Aug 21, 09 at 11:35:38 EDT Who votes for number 1 on this list? http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/billcosby/a/cosby_write_in.htm

Online earning oppurtunities for students posted by: emmanilsson Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Aug 26 at 8:58 AM Wed, Aug 26, 09 at 08:58:37 EDT Online earning oppurtunities for students for more info check the link below http://tinyurl.com/m5wgt9

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: pedercody Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Oct 10 at 2:37 AM Sat, Oct 10, 09 at 02:37:28 EDT (In reply to HMM6) Being in engineering, I see group assignments a lot. One reason is that professors often try to break up the monotony in their classes, not realizing group projects are often more aggravating. Even more interesting is the "real world" reason. The problems that arise often stem from the inability of group projects to mirror real world team projects. In the real world people have vastly different experience and knowledge for handling an open-ended problem. Nevertheless, in the classroom problems have one solution and the students all bring the same knowledge and experience to the class. Furthermore, often group assignments can be completed independently, unlike the real world where assigning useless jobs is unprofitable. A key example of this is my recent engineering project. A small team is assigned to the project, which certainly helped in guiding the team to an intelligent solution, despite some personality conflicts. However, because the final design was remarkably minimal, we now have 5 people working on a simple design. If this were a more complex or advanced project, it would have easily warranted a team. As is, I wonder why it really takes 5 people.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: vantheo Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Oct 14 at 6:53 AM Wed, Oct 14, 09 at 06:53:14 EDT Hello, I like the group assignments always because you can consult your group members in this regard otherwise you have to work for yourself. [url=http://www.worldnet-long-distance.com/]Business long distance[/url]

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: dsbente Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 15 at 1:09 AM Thu, Oct 15, 09 at 01:09:32 EDT i do!!! i really hate group assignment when i'm into a group that has no interest on making this particular activity... http://www.avance-debt-collectors.dpcregistry.co.uk

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 15 at 9:30 AM Thu, Oct 15, 09 at 09:30:31 EDT MIMU!

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: djsh4dow Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 15 at 11:31 AM Thu, Oct 15, 09 at 11:31:35 EDT This is funny to read

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: djsh4dow Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 15 at 11:36 AM Thu, Oct 15, 09 at 11:36:19 EDT Usually the people that complain about group-work are the ones that don't have the balls to call out the people who aren't pulling their weight.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ck5 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 15 at 1:56 PM Thu, Oct 15, 09 at 01:56:27 EDT (In reply to djsh4dow) Yeah, what's with those girls and eunuchs...why can't they just stand up for their rights like boys with balls?

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: damjsm Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Oct 16 at 6:39 PM Fri, Oct 16, 09 at 06:39:13 EDT Hey, I'm a teacher and I hate them. What a group assignment does--and this is the only positive--is force students to compartmentalize tasks and accomplish something. You are absolutely right that group projects are the blind leading the blind, in some respects. Students come to college to have someone prepared to teach them topics and material actually teach the topics and material, not to try to 'facilitate' or 'direct' students' often inaccurate probings of an issue. Teachers need to teach, and the pseudo-academic Education types who focus on modalities and process rather than on substance are undermining the educational system solely to insure that they will have jobs in future years. They cry out that they are putting students first, but they are really covering their own tails. Total poop.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: diemydarling666 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Oct 20 at 8:25 AM Tue, Oct 20, 09 at 08:25:16 EDT I'm going with guest here, unless the prof plans to somehow include a note into my GPA that my grade was not only based on my ability, but also someone else's weight I was pulling, I don't want to deal with group work. I can think of labs, for example, which I received 50's on because my partner was an idiot. Oh and lol at JakeBarnes03 the pseudo-intellectual name-dropping "Cornell" and some random studies--must have paid some good money at a fine Lib Arts institution to learn to bull**** so well. Common sense tops any study: different strokes for different folks. If you can't learn in a lecture environment, go to a technical school and learn to craft something or some ish. Not my problem. And of course just listening to someone explain information is not going to be enough to absorb it into long-term memory. That's why you go home and study/practice. The point of the lecture is to guide you in that process.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: diemydarling666 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Oct 20 at 8:37 AM Tue, Oct 20, 09 at 08:37:20 EDT Also, this brings up my experience with international studies versus here in the US. In other countries, they usually know that there's not enough jobs to go around so they set up the curriculum so a bunch of people will fail. The ones who have what it takes to pass get the jobs, like natural selection. Here it's like the curriculum is designed to keep the smart people down, always trying to help along *everyone* so *everyone* can get a job. I feel as though "group work" is part of this phenomenon, and it must go. Everyone must learn to fend for themselves and be responsible for what they do.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: lghairdzyne1 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 29 at 12:07 PM Thu, Oct 29, 09 at 12:07:49 EDT (In reply to JakeBarnes03) What do studies show about second, third, and fourth year students? College students who don't have an attention span longer than 5 minutes should not attend college until they have matured a bit. The "instant feedback" I've gotten from other students is usually wrong. For instance, correcting the way I use "their" in "Many women, along with their children,..." even though it is the correct usage. lucky for me, I know better, others might find such feedback detrimental. Feedback I've recieved from other students in speech class consisted of comments like, "try not to be so nervous". Wow! if I'd just thought of TRYING. Instant feedback from other students is no substitute for waiting on a busy professor. By definition, other students in the class know no more than myself, or they wouldn't be in the class.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: lghairdzyne1 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 29 at 12:25 PM Thu, Oct 29, 09 at 12:25:22 EDT (In reply to DocHamlet) I wonder why there are more profs participating than students? This is a student forum and we should be allowed to gripe about group assigments without being told we are wrong about how we feel. When I consider group assignments I think about the calculus project that consisted of 19 pages of questions based on a physics lab involving a pendulum. We were place in group of three and given 2 weeks to complete the packet. The two people I was grouped with stood me up TWICE when we had scheduled to meet outside the classroom, then proceeded to drop the class. I was on my own, doing the work of three people. On another note, many college students work full- time, have kids, or may commute a long distance to school. it is unreasonable to expect two or more students to be able to force their schedules to coincide outside the classroom. It is also unfair and counterproductive. The above is, of course, entirely unrelated to group dicussion IN the classroom, which I find incredibly valuable.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: forreal2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Oct 29 at 9:21 PM Thu, Oct 29, 09 at 09:21:50 EDT (In reply to HMM6) I hate them. They are from hell. And BTW in the real world, people who don't work get fired.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Oct 30 at 8:18 AM Fri, Oct 30, 09 at 08:18:42 EDT (In reply to forreal2) >And BTW in the real world, people who don't >work get fired. "don't work"? - possibly "do mediocre work" -probably not "push deadlines, don't take initiative" -not likely In the "real world", there are LOTS of workers who have pretty low standards about what they do, and you will have to decide whether to continue to do things properly yourself, even if it means picking up their slack, or to give up your self-respect and match their shoddy output. (If you want to do the latter, that's what unions are for. They're all about promoting the lowest common denominator.)

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: forreal2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Oct 30 at 11:36 AM Fri, Oct 30, 09 at 11:36:27 EDT (In reply to phys_lab) Ok, but if I'm at work I assume that I have a work project with people I actually work with. Do companies exist that pair people who work during the day with people who work at night? In school you have people who live all over and work different schedules. At work we are all already in one place.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Oct 30 at 11:59 AM Fri, Oct 30, 09 at 11:59:21 EDT (In reply to forreal2) >Ok, but if I'm at work >I assume that I have a work project with people I >actually work with. Do companies exist that pair >people who work during the day with people who >work at night? No exactly the scenario you're asking about, but my employer (a university, ie. should be familiar with academic schedules) often schedules safety training, which is supposed to be mandatory for lab instructors, in ALL-DAY sessions DURING THE TERM. Pretty stupid, because it essentially guarantees that many of the lab instructors can't make it due to, you know, having to instruct labs.... I'm not making any grand defense of group work, merely saying that even in the "real world", there are lots of times that conscientious, rational people have to work with, or around, lazy or clueless ones. And in the real world, your "coworkers" don't change every 4 months....

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Oct 30 at 12:03 PM Fri, Oct 30, 09 at 12:03:25 EDT (In reply to HMM6) The reason people hate goup assignments is because some people just do not put the same effort into a group project as others. The flip side to this is people who do more of the work, learn way more, which in return makes them faster, smater, more is comprehended and there is a higher chance of success later on at there job. One, they no who to stay away from at their workplace. Two, they are more efficient which in turn means more money later. People who do not participate are fudging the carrer they chase because they learn less. Which makes them slow. Resulting in a harder carrer pattern because it might take them more time to learn their new job. And that equals less money. Sorry. Suckers. Hehe.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: Dessalines564 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Oct 30 at 2:39 PM Fri, Oct 30, 09 at 02:39:35 EDT (In reply to guest2 I think it will always be a loss battle convencing to professors and colleges about what works and what not work in the classeroom from a student point of view. Group assignment (outside the classroom) doesn't work and will never work regardless of any popular research,.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Oct 31 at 11:25 AM Sat, Oct 31, 09 at 11:25:03 EDT (In reply to Dessalines564) I bet it is real hard for this person to make friends. So negative you know. Hey, I do not like group projects but in the end, I end up with more friends, study partners, and a better chance for success. In the world of, its not what you know but who you know, how do you expect to work with people (you know) if you are so negative? People are going to not want to work with you (in or out of school). As much as I do not like to work in a group project I always try to lift a positive from these experiences. Good luck with everything. Your gonna need it.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: ck5 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Oct 31 at 5:38 PM Sat, Oct 31, 09 at 05:38:16 EDT I know you, therefore, I am successful.

Re: Who else hates group assignments??? posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Oct 31 at 5:39 PM Sat, Oct 31, 09 at 05:39:57 EDT (In reply to ck5) Not really but it helps. Everyone has different connections.

w5

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