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Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 6 at 10:07 AM Fri, Nov 6, 09 at 10:07:01 EST (In reply to 642) I got an "A" on a midterm and felt like I did not deserve it. Especially when I got it back. I did not say anything but I did not feel like I did the greatest job. I was still happy to get the A though. If I earned a C, I would have not complained, but that is just me. Give everyone what they earn and who cares if they have to drop your class. They should try harder next time. naldo007

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: DarthNez Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Nov 8 at 3:37 PM Sun, Nov 8, 09 at 03:37:23 EST Is that really being fair to the students who earned it? Also, the idiots who whined their way to an "A" learned that if they complain enough, they'll get what they want. Lastly, and I used to wonder why we have so many people with degrees that don't have a job. It's simple, they don't know anything.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Nov 8 at 4:35 PM Sun, Nov 8, 09 at 04:35:00 EST (In reply to 642) I would give the students the grade they deserve. Don't feel bad. If you are doing the best job you can and getting through to the students they will respond and you will have more students with good grades rather than bad... The students will appreciate the fair grade far more than just handing out "A's". (In reply to DarthNez) Lastly, and I used to >wonder why we have so many people with degrees >that don't have a job. It's simple, they don't >know anything. I think jobs are so hard to come by because the economy is so bad, not necessarily because people with degrees do not know anything.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 9 at 6:08 PM Mon, Nov 9, 09 at 06:08:42 EST (In reply to 642) If they are going to fail, I guess that kinda sucks. Maybe you can give them some x-tra credit work that they can do to pull up their grade.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Sallyhudson123 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 9 at 8:40 PM Mon, Nov 9, 09 at 08:40:29 EST (In reply to 642) Hmm I wonder if all med students were just given A's what would happen http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=2195168

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Nov 10 at 7:58 AM Tue, Nov 10, 09 at 07:58:15 EST If they are going to fail, I >guess that kinda sucks. Maybe you can give them >some x-tra credit work that they can do to pull >up their grade. (In reply to naldo007) Is that what you would do if you were a prof? Would you make the x-tra credit work available to all the students, or just to the ones who are failing? Would you list it in the syllabus as an x-tra assignment or keep it as a surprise? Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: 642 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Nov 10 at 9:20 AM Tue, Nov 10, 09 at 09:20:16 EST (In reply to naldo007) In U and in life some things just count, period. End of story. You had ample notice of exam, format was thoroughly explained, questions were invited if what was required was not clear, the exam had choice and my re-marking policy is right off the course outline. Guess what? You FAILED. Yes, I know that is heresy but this time there are no second chances. Current methods are ineffective so change them or drop the course. And oh, BTW, I want more marking like a hole in the head.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Nov 11 at 9:45 AM Wed, Nov 11, 09 at 09:45:43 EST (In reply to buttercup) Not a professor, so I am not real sure what I would do. If the person was trying real hard and I knew it, I would be more in tune to helping that person. If they were lazy, I would probably tell them to choke on an egg, and I will see you next semester. I am not a professor though. I am farthest thing from a lazy student, so I don't usually fail but if I was I would want some help.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Nov 11 at 10:05 AM Wed, Nov 11, 09 at 10:05:15 EST (In reply to 642) Did you know there is a song called "A hole in your head" -Rage Against the Machine. Yeah, more work is not good when you get payed the same amount. For you its probably more principle than anything else. So, I see your point. If you gave someone x-tra credit you would have to multiply it by however many students you have. What is it anyway? - 200, 300. That would be a lot of x-tra work for you! I will leave saying one thing. Unless you are about to retire, BE CAREFUL WHO'S FEET YOU STEP ON TODAY, BECAUSE THEY WILL STEP ON YOURS THE NEXT. And, - try not to trip over dollars to pick up pennies.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Nov 11 at 12:34 PM Wed, Nov 11, 09 at 12:34:11 EST (In reply to 642) Or maybe it was Cypress Hill that sang it.. It is something along those lines. "A hole in your head" If you are scared of cursing, I would not look that song up.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Larae718 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Nov 11 at 3:01 PM Wed, Nov 11, 09 at 03:01:04 EST (In reply to 642) I always feel like I don't deserve an A when I get it. But that's just my lack of self confidence talking.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: justbeingnosie Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Nov 17 at 7:31 PM Tue, Nov 17, 09 at 07:31:36 EST (In reply to 642) I don't see anything wrong with that Idea. What would be bad about that?

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Nov 18 at 10:44 AM Wed, Nov 18, 09 at 10:44:54 EST (In reply to justbeingnosie) >(In reply to 642) I don't see anything wrong with >that Idea. What would be bad about that? Well, the mark would be meaningless, for one thing. Would you want to know that at your doctor's medical school, they just gave everyone A's? How about the teacher's college where your child's teacher went? How about the engineering school where the designer of the airplane you want to fly in went? The point of marks in a course is to give some meaningful information about how much the students actually learned from it. If everyone gets A' we might as well just put degrees as prizes in cereal boxes. And that's what they'll be worth.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Wednesday, Nov 18 at 12:00 PM Wed, Nov 18, 09 at 12:00:34 EST (In reply to phys_lab) It's not about handing out A's. It's about giving x-tra credit. You give x-tra credit to get students to learn what they need to learn (the material), if it could not be done the first time. Have you ever had to learn something twice that was complicated? Have you ever missed a question on a test? Do you understand you can gear x-tra credit towards what you want the student to learn, you arrogant A$$? Some people learn from their mistakes. It's called trial and error (this is how humans have advanced, even today) Be a good teacher and help someone if they could not get it the first time. You fail = your not smart enough to be what you want (engineer/Dr/etc.). Why not help rather than discourage? You are the reason some people do not learn a damn thing when they are trying. You think you teach perfectly. Well, no one is perfect and everyone learns differently. Why are you so pesimistic? You think they can't, therefor they don't (not with you, anyway). You probably teach pesimistically. Give x-tra credit that might make someone good at the subject you are TRYING to teach. Don't be a jerk. You are the reason America does not have a good education system!

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 10:48 AM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 10:48:40 EST (In reply to naldo007) >It's not about handing >out A's. It's about giving x-tra credit. Actually, the post I responded to only referenced the ORIGINAL poster, who was talking about g"handing out A's". > Have you ever had to >learn something twice that was complicated? I'm not sure; if I learned it once I would not likely have needed more than a review later. > Have >you ever missed a question on a test? Yes, several. >Do you >understand you can gear x-tra credit towards what >you want the student to learn, you arrogant A$$? Got out on the wrong side of bed? >Some people learn from their mistakes. It's >called trial and error (this is how humans have >advanced, even today) Be a good teacher and >help someone if they could not get it the first >time. How do you know I don't? > You fail = your not smart enough to be >what you want (engineer/Dr/etc.). Are you saying this is true, or this is what you think I said? >Why not help >rather than discourage? You are the reason some >people do not learn a damn thing when they are >trying. You think you teach perfectly. Well, >no one is perfect and everyone learns >differently. Why are you so pesimistic? You >think they can't, therefor they don't (not with >you, anyway). You probably teach >pesimistically. How do you have any IDEA how I teach? Because I said that handing out A's is a bad thing you seem to feel you have deep insight into how I work. Psychic, you ain't. > Give x-tra credit that might >make someone good at the subject you are TRYING >to teach. Actually I ALWAYS have marking schemes with more than 100 possible marks in them, so some things will get dropped. But I make sure this is covered at the beginning of the course so it's the same rules for everyone. I DON'T believe in making up different rules for people who slack off for most of the course and then want some "alternative" way to get a decent mark after they've burned their own bridges. >Don't be a jerk. You are the reason >America does not have a good education system! I'm not sure about how this works. Since I'm in Canada I'm surprised I have much influence on the American education system. I must be more powerful than I thought.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 1:20 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 01:20:22 EST (In reply to phys_lab) Canada sucks too. If you read the whole forum instead of just replying to what you want to reply to, maybe you would know the direction in which the forum is goin. I still don't think your a good teacher. I am glad you are in Canada. And I still think your arrogant. I woke on the left side of the bed today and the right because I lay in a diagnol position. I still think you suck. And I also think your response sucks. Here is some x-tra credit for you. -How can I become a better teacher? Plz don't answer because I know you would miss the point anyway. Go ahead "medical use" trailblazer. Why be a teacher when you can't teach? Tell me something I don't know about you. BTW - I don't want an A handed to me, I want to earn it. I want to learn material that is important. I want to pass the class when I am sure that I know the material that was covered - that is all. MORON. I want teachers to teach and not discourage - (like you). You should retire.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: ecnprof Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 1:36 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 01:36:49 EST (In reply to phys_lab) Don't concern yourself too much with Naldo. Naldo enjoys trying to push people's buttons without bothering to make too much sense. Your posts were both logical and lucid.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 2:08 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 02:08:48 EST >I am glad you are in Canada. (In reply to naldo007) I'm glad that he is in Canada too. I wonder if there is a cultural difference between what we expect of our professors in Canada and what you expect of your professors, and what level of responsibility students take for their own success or failure. Or maybe the difference lies in the fact that we don't have community colleges quite like the way you have them, so that university students and college students are on different streams and study in completely different environs. What you are describing sounds like something one might find at a community college in the US .. am I right? Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 2:26 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 02:26:05 EST (In reply to ecnprof) Don't tell him that. Your on to me. Can't fool you! I like not making sense. I think it is funny. I can make sense if I want to. My plan is to be as vague as possible, spell everything wrong and confuse you. How did you catch on? If it pisses someone off then, good, more entertainment for me. So I guess you win this time.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 2:33 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 02:33:00 EST (In reply to buttercup) BTW-I don't really think Canada sucks. I just don't like that guy so I will tell him anything that might change the way he does things And, your right everyone should teach the same way. (Not the exact same because that would never happen) There should be some kind of code to teaching so that everyone is on the same level (community and university). There are codes for building houses why not teaching. Everywhere is different. North teaches different from South. China teaches different from the U.S.A. and it shows. This place is lop-sided.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 2:53 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 02:53:02 EST (In reply to buttercup) Ohh yeah. You asked if I was in America. I'm Mexican, so of course I live in America. hehe

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 3:04 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 03:04:40 EST (In reply to naldo007) >And, your right everyone >should teach the same way. That sounds awful. I've had lots of different teachers who were very good but very different. Uniformity tends to produce uniform mediocrity. > (Not the exact same >because that would never happen) There should be >some kind of code to teaching so that everyone is >on the same level (community and university). >There are codes for building houses why not >teaching. What would you put in a code of teaching that applied to Shakespeare and calculus? > Everywhere is different. North >teaches different from South. China teaches >different from the U.S.A. and it shows. This >place is lop-sided. Differences allow us to see what works and what doesn't. It also allows students to see what kind of teaching works for them as individuals. Variety is the spice of life.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: artsy357 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 3:44 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 03:44:18 EST So if everything is taught the same way, I guess all students have to learn the same way as well. Multiple choice/scantron tests without any critical thinking involved for everyone. Woohoo...my grading life just got easier!

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 4:09 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 04:09:36 EST (In reply to phys_lab) You again? Didn't I tell you to retire? Be a good teacher. I'm just giving you a hard time. Everyone is different and variety is the spice of life. Everyone knows that. I think that learning from mistakes is good, but what is taking so long? How come there still are not any changes? How come all of the rich hoods get great educations and the poor do not? People wonder why I am so dumb. The reason is because I am from the slum where there just isn't great teachers or schools. The government doesn't do anything about it. No one says here are the things you need to know. When I graduated highschool I could not read and comprehend crap. I could not write, type, work with computers, nothing. It was not until I moved and realized that certain neighborhoods that were poor had mostly bad teachers. Of course there are well off neighborhoods that had bad teachers but man it sucks having to learn what should have been taught from the beginning, in college. Bad teachers don't give second chances. They think that because you did not learn the first time, that you definetely will not learn the second. What about the people that were left behind and did not even know it? - like me. You think I should get it the first time if I study hard enough, huh. I study hard and my grades are good. I am not a straight A student, but I have a high GPA. If I am about to fail and have tried real hard and I have almost learned the material, why not spend the x-tra time to teach me the second time? Why not give some x-tra credit? Why not try to teach someone that you think will not "get it". Trust me it will be twice as rewarding for you and for me. Why not go the x-tra mile or x-tra seven miles if need be? Just teach the best that you can and if it involves helping someone out that has worked real hard, do it. Don't complain and gripe about how it is not fair to the rest of the students. Your too competitive. Just help people because that is what teaching should be about. It's about helping and teaching (you know being nice). Then I get a degree and the economy tanks. Now I am back inschool because there were not any jobs.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Thursday, Nov 19 at 4:14 PM Thu, Nov 19, 09 at 04:14:24 EST (In reply to artsy357) That is what you want is for things to be easy. huh?

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: charlenekarras Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 9:06 AM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 09:06:59 EST dont give marks out for work or doing nothing, give the EXACT mark out for the right answer, cause you gotta know the **** to move on or our ****ed. its gotta be for the answer not the behaviour.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: charlenekarras Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 9:16 AM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 09:16:24 EST i know many people who dont work their ass off who get good grades and the other ones who do get nothing, Ill bet its because there better at manipulating than working, I hate those people.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 11:06 AM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 11:06:29 EST (In reply to naldo007) >When I >graduated highschool I could not read and >comprehend crap. I could not write, type, work >with computers, nothing. This is a big part of the problem. The school system is under more pressure to make sure people "graduate" than to make sure they learn specific things. The easy solution is to let anyone graduate, regardless of what they know (or don't). >It was not until I >moved and realized that certain neighborhoods >that were poor had mostly bad teachers. Of >course there are well off neighborhoods that had >bad teachers but man it sucks having to learn >what should have been taught from the beginning, >in college. Definitely. But there's not as much pressure on post-secondary institutions to make sure people "pass", so at least at this stage people have to know the material to move on. >Bad teachers don't give second >chances. They think that because you did not >learn the first time, that you definetely will >not learn the second. What about the people that >were left behind and did not even know it? - like >me. You think I should get it the first time if >I study hard enough, huh. I study hard and my >grades are good. I am not a straight A student, >but I have a high GPA. You sound like someone who actually made the effort to catch up despite a poor background. That's great. >If I am about to fail and >have tried real hard and I have almost learned >the material, why not spend the x-tra time to >teach me the second time? It's largely an issue of resources; I teach somewhere around 200 different students each term. That means I can dedicate a MAXIMUM of about 12 minutes per student per week, INCLUDING class time, marking, administration, etc. About half my time is spent in labs, so that means I have no more than about 6 minutes per student per week, including time to prepare, mark etc. And I know there are instructors who have courses with several hundred students in them, so the math gets worse. >Why not give some >x-tra credit? Why not try to teach someone that >you think will not "get it". Trust me it will >be twice as rewarding for you and for me. Why >not go the x-tra mile or x-tra seven miles if >need be? Just teach the best that you can and if >it involves helping someone out that has worked >real hard, do it. Up to 6 minutes a week, that's possible. >Don't complain and gripe about >how it is not fair to the rest of the students. But why not offer the same options to everyone? If one person can do something for "extra credit", why can't everyone get the same credit for the same thing? Since they're all taking the same course, they should all be able to be evaluated the same way. >Your too competitive. Just help people because >that is what teaching should be about. It's >about helping and teaching (you know being >nice). Unfortunately, it's also partly about being tough; or at least, realistic and honest. Students need to know when they're NOT succeeding, as well as being offered help (which some won't take). The problems you talked about in high school exist because students AREN'T told when their work is inadequate. >Then I get a degree and the economy >tanks. Now I am back inschool because there >were not any jobs. At least you were smart enough to do something about it. Some will just wait for someone else to "fix things" for them. They're the ones who will never succeed.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: artsy357 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 11:31 AM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 11:31:46 EST (In reply to naldo007) No. What I would like is for my students to actually read the assigned material, participate in the class discussions, and critically think about/analyze the material. Most students (and I hope I am wrong about this) want to just memorize information and spit it back for the test.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 1:45 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 01:45:31 EST (In reply to phys_lab) It's largely an issue of resources; I teach somewhere around 200 different students each term. That means I can dedicate a MAXIMUM of about 12 minutes per student per week, INCLUDING class time, marking, administration, etc. About half my time is spent in labs, so that means I have no more than about 6 minutes per student per week, including time to prepare, mark etc. And I know there are instructors who have courses with several hundred students in them, so the math gets worse. This shows perfectly why the education system is so poor in the U.S. There are not enough teachers (let alone qualified teachers) and the reason why is there is not much incentive for someone to become a teacher. Teachers are underpaid and overworked, so someone with a degree in say, math, would be better off doing something else besides teaching that pays more. This is where the problem lies. If teachers got paid more, we would have more teachers, and more qualified teachers, and there would be less students per teacher and the quality of education would be much better. What we should do is write to our congressmen and demand an increase in the amount of money for public education so teachers can get paid what they deserve and then more people, especially qualified ones, would become teachers. Unfortunately, public education funding is all too often not a priority of lawmakers.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 4:13 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 04:13:20 EST If teachers got paid more, we >would have more teachers, and more qualified >teachers, and there would be less students per >teacher and the quality of education would be >much better. (In reply to mocos) "fewer" not "less" students per teacher You're right about writing to your congressmen and women. Phys_lab, I hope that you're on to it pronto, while the congresspeople can still read. Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 6:35 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 06:35:37 EST (In reply to buttercup) "fewer" not "less" students per teacher Oh excuse me, ms. anal retentive. didn't realize i was being graded on grammar. i probably got a better grade in english than you anyway.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 6:40 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 06:40:13 EST (In reply to buttercup) yea duh everybody knows its fewer not less students. what an idiot. i kant beleeve sumwon mesed up that bad on gramer.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 6:42 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 06:42:27 EST (In reply to mocos) hey i like your name. they taste real good.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 7:55 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 07:55:38 EST Oh excuse me, ms. anal >retentive. didn't realize i was being graded on >grammar. i probably got a better grade in >english than you anyway. (In reply to mocos) Yes, you probably did. English grammar was dropped from the curriculum when I was in grade 5, so it wouldn't be hard to beat my grade. The only formal grammar training I received was when I studied other languages. But ... if you were trained in English Grammar, then why did you make that mistake? If there was a deficiency in your training, then it would be understandable to find basic grammar errors, but when I pointed one out, you became defensive and claimed that you had a good grade in English. Do you see the problem here? Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 9:36 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 09:36:27 EST (In reply to buttercup) >Yes, you probably did. English grammar was dropped from the curriculum when I was in grade 5, so it wouldn't be hard to beat my grade. The only formal grammar training I received was when I studied other languages. But ... if you were trained in English Grammar, then why did you make that mistake? If there was a deficiency in your training, then it would be understandable to find basic grammar errors, but when I pointed one out, you became defensive and claimed that you had a good grade in English. Do you see the problem here? Yea you are so anal retentive that you had to point out a stupid grammar mistake. I still my point across. Plus, I could go through this forum and point out plenty of grammar mistakes that you have made, but I didn't cause I'M not anal retentive. I'm actually pretty laid back, but I'm still better at grammar than you.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 9:37 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 09:37:59 EST (In reply to buttercup) Oh yea you will probably mention that I made another mistake in my last post. I don't spend hours proofreading my posts like you probably do.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 10:22 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 10:22:37 EST (In reply to buttercup) >"fewer" not "less" students per teacher Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering if it is actually incorrect to say "less students per teacher" anyway. Apparently, these websites do not think so: NOTE: This one was from the Department of Education: "We provide group instruction (8 or less students per teacher) small group instruction (4 or less students per teacher) and Distance Learning." http://www.maine.gov/education/nclb/supplemental_service_providers/summarydatafriendly.html "Ratio: 6 OR Less Students Per Teacher " http://www.superpages.com/bp/Lincoln-NE/Jim-Ungers-Gymnastics-School-L0113354512.htm "The natural response is yeah, of course, because if there are less students per teacher, each student gets more individual attention from the teacher." http://flowingdata.com/2009/11/10/do-we-need-more-teachers/ "I would want to choose a class that has less students per teacher because my child would be more likely to succeed." (at end of page) http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Social_and_Cultural_Foundations_of_American_Education/Edition_3/8.3.3 "I do believe in the practice of individual help, which does require less students per teacher to be done effectively." http://elementaryteacher.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/do-overcrowded-classrooms-cause-teacher-resignations/ "Smaller classrooms with less students per teacher" http://www.emansion.gov.lr/doc/200708budget_fact_sheet.pdf "Educational facilities in New Zealand are world-class and there are less students per teacher, allowing for a supportive learning environment." http://www.nzembassy.com/info.cfm?CFID=15019260&CFTOKEN=62106202&c=50&l=121&s=go&p=63445 "It was the smallest in the city and had less students per teacher than most of the other schools." http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1666783/administrators_focus_on_school_safety.html NOTE: This one is also from the Department of Education "Regular classroom with class size of 10 or less students per teacher" http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:v9i9_9SiyZ4J:www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Instruction/RemedialPlan.doc+%22less+students+per+teacher%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Hmmmmm....I wonder if all of these people are wrong as well. Maybe it's because we're all not as smart as Canadians.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 10:24 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 10:24:48 EST (In reply to buttercup) Oh yea I forgot to mention I could go on for pages....there are SO many more examples. But you know I think I got my point across (again).

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 11:08 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 11:08:11 EST (In reply to buttercup) How 'bout you two shaking hands and dropping the bigoted, racist asshattery?

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Friday, Nov 20 at 11:09 PM Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 11:09:25 EST (In reply to naldo007) What the h&!l is asshattery anyway?

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 7:06 AM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 07:06:10 EST Just out of curiosity, >I'm wondering if it is actually incorrect to say >"less students per teacher" anyway. >Apparently, these websites do not think >so: (In reply to mocos) Oh my, you spent a lot of time on that. Instead of looking for instances where it is used incorrectly, go to a grammar site, and there you will find an explanation of the difference between "less" and "fewer". http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/lessfewer?view=uk It is always strictly incorrect to refer to less people. However, the grammar example wasn't my point. My point was to agree that some people are given good grades in subjects when they haven't been taught the material. No one is going to write to their congressperson if they believe that their grades reflect their knowledge. There is no problem to report. It won't be until you see where the inadequacies in your education have occurred that you will do something about it. Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 7:13 AM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 07:13:06 EST What the h&!l is >asshattery anyway? (In reply to naldo007) "foolishness" ... when spoken in polite company. ;) Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: luv2learn_2 Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 10:40 AM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 10:40:51 EST >Alas, they are wearing me down. Life really >would be easier if I just gave out A's. (In reply to 642) I think handing out A's is not the way I would go if I were a teacher. The best teachers are the ones that make the student work hard for an A. For example, I know students who just don't do well on research papers because they struggle with finding the correct sources (takes time, but there's always information out there on everything especially the way computers are nowadays) and citing those sources. Sometimes I have to go to other computers with individuals that know how to use computers in order to research information to help me find what I need. If you struggle in this particular area (computers, citing sources, etc.), it can be tough because the problem with research papers is you need that help from outside sources and sometimes it takes time to get that help, but once you?re able to do so, everything in the paper just clicks, the puzzle comes together and the paper is full of valuable information on a particular subject or subjects. Citing sources always confused me a bit too, but since one of my teachers would not just hand out A's on papers, I was forced to learn how to cite my sources. Now if only I could get that darn "English" down...

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: rolypolyfishhed Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 11:49 AM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 11:49:37 EST Oh my, >you spent a lot of time on that. Instead of >looking for instances where it is used >incorrectly, Thanks for the laugh! (In reply to buttercup)

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 12:13 PM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 12:13:42 EST (In reply to buttercup) >Oh my, you spent a lot of time on that. Instead of looking for instances where it is used incorrectly, go to a grammar site, and there you will find an explanation of the difference between "less" and "fewer". My whole point was that you just had to correct a minor grammar error in my post. Why just mine? Why don't you correct all of the misspellings, grammar and punctuation errors in all of the posts? Why did you single me out, and correct me. I'm not really sure. And by the way, I graduated salutatorian at my high school, and magna cum laude for both my bachelor's and doctor's degrees at a well-respected university. I don't feel there are any significant deficiencies in my education, but I have still written letters to my congressmen asking them to spend more on education. My problem in life is anal retentive people who focus on the small details and miss the big picture, like you. You must be an English teacher, the way insignificant grammar mistakes bother you and the way you write things - very verbose and trying to sound all smart. I don't doubt you're smart, but if you're going to correct me, correct everyone on RMP. (Oh one more thing - posting those websites took me maybe 5 minutes - I just copied and pasted.)

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 1:28 PM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 01:28:49 EST Why did you single me out, and >correct me. I corrected the error, (not you), because it was a good illustration of the topic. We were discussing the problems that arise when students are given high grades for poor achievement. >I don't feel there are any significant >deficiencies in my education, How is it then, that a person with a PhD who graduated magna cum laude would use the phrase "less students"? Your error wasn't a mere slip of the fingers. You didn't know the correct usage, and worse, you didn't know where to go to find the answer, and even worse than that, you are defending your error by shooting the messenger. (Oh one more thing - posting >those websites took me maybe 5 minutes - I just >copied and pasted.) I took 10 seconds. The Oxford dictionary is bookmarked on my computer. Buttercup (In reply to mocos)

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 2:25 PM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 02:25:31 EST (In reply to buttercup) Who cares about grammar? I don't. I think mocos is smart. He got his point across. If it is a girl I want to marry her. So, mocos, will u marry me. All of this grammar crap is retarded. mocos writes very well and I think buttercup felt threatened that mocos might be as smart as she is. From an outsiders POV it looks as if there is a little jealousy.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 2:34 PM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 02:34:50 EST (In reply to buttercup) >>I corrected the error, (not you), because it was a good illustration of the topic. We were discussing the problems that arise when students are given high grades for poor achievement. How is it then, that a person with a PhD who graduated magna cum laude would use the phrase "less students"? Do you really think that such a small grammar mistake represents "poor achievement"? I feel that I have achieved quite a bit. Not only did I graduate magna cum laude, I was number 3 in my medical school class. You shouldn't assume that all doctors are PhD's. You know, not all people are perfect. Just because I made a error in grammar does not mean that I am not an effective communicator. And by correcting the error that I made, you did in fact correct me. Which I don't mind, but this is not English class. I'm not writing a paper. I was just posting my opinion, and you forgot to answer me. Why not correct ALL the errors on every single post if you're going to correct mine? What makes me so special?

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 2:37 PM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 02:37:56 EST (In reply to naldo007) >Who cares about grammar? I don't. I think mocos is smart. He got his point across. If it is a girl I want to marry her. So, mocos, will u marry me. All of this grammar crap is retarded. mocos writes very well and I think buttercup felt threatened that mocos might be as smart as she is. From an outsiders POV it looks as if there is a little jealousy. Thank you naldo. I agree arguing over grammar is silly. And yes I will marry you. I like what you write. Even though you may not have had the easiest time in school when you were younger, it sounds like you just kept at it, and you will succeed. Don't worry. Hard work always pays off in life. I know going through medical school was very hard and demanding, but now I have a very rewarding career, and you will too (whatever it is that you're studying).

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Saturday, Nov 21 at 3:50 PM Sat, Nov 21, 09 at 03:50:56 EST (In reply to mocos) If you think you can handle all of this baggage then I guess we can be husband and wife. I think I am in love: I write what I want, I write cause I can, I write it all wrong, I don't give a damn. I can take grammar Beat it with a hammer. -The Perfect Literature Gladiator From the slum, I am dumb, A street-smart scum All while weed fills the lung Dad "grew" in the everglades, Every Christmas we get paid, This is where, I learned my game. A pistol swings back and forth, It swings with great force (let me off I can run to the fort!) From a one room place, to a place full of space, My poverty provides a shade American dreams are not to be free My thoughts are not be seen through a life-time of tragedy No foot in my mouth Raised in the South I grew with a bad, bad mouth If you don't like the way I talk, I don't like the way you walk. Be careful. Don't get caught... Trapping yourself. Engaging me? I laugh, you couldn't possibly. I am the prodigy, not wishy-washy. A rose that grew from concrete Yeah, that's me, lookin pretty I come from the gritty, not the ****ty What do you know about me? Not a damn thing, But I bet your a pretty lil' thing. Thanks for marrying me.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Nov 22 at 10:43 AM Sun, Nov 22, 09 at 10:43:51 EST (In reply to naldo007) I like your poem. I can tell it's from the heart. I think you and I will get along just fine....

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Nov 22 at 10:45 AM Sun, Nov 22, 09 at 10:45:30 EST (In reply to naldo007) Where are we going for our honeymoon? How about Jamaica. Always wanted to go there.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Sunday, Nov 22 at 1:54 PM Sun, Nov 22, 09 at 01:54:51 EST (In reply to mocos) Jamaica sounds good to me. I have been there before and I know the hoods that are fun. We can go do tourist things like take pics of all of the locals while riding on a horse. I will give Damien Marley a call to let him know we are going to stay at his place while he is in Miami. I am sure he will not mind. You wanna touch my butt?

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 9:09 AM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 09:09:27 EST (In reply to mocos) >This shows >perfectly why the education system is so poor in >the U.S. There are not enough teachers (let >alone qualified teachers) and the reason why is >there is not much incentive for someone to become >a teacher. Teachers are underpaid and >overworked, so someone with a degree in say, >math, would be better off doing something else >besides teaching that pays more. This is where >the problem lies. If teachers got paid more, we >would have more teachers, and more qualified >teachers, and there would be less students per >teacher and the quality of education would be >much better. I'm in Canada, and at a university, so the situation I described was not in the context of the American public system. (As an aside, I think our public school teachers in Canada get payed significantly more than U.S. teachers, but I stand to be corrected.) However, in some ways the problem is less about the total number of students than about the average quality of students. The bottom 10% or so of students in a class probably require 50% or more of the work in teaching (giving extra help, re-explaining, etc.) and so the whole system could be improved by more "ruthless" streaming; i.e. only letting qualified students into courses. In the school system this would require more deliberate evaluation of what students are good at to give more focused career counseling. There are way too many students in programs who shouldn't be there just because they have to do "something". These are the ones who bog down the system.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 11:11 AM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 11:11:46 EST (In reply to phys_lab) I guess people like me shouldn't be there. I bet I bog the whole class down. Maybe I should give up like everyone wants me to.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 1:07 PM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 01:07:07 EST (In reply to naldo007) >I guess people like me >shouldn't be there. I bet I bog the whole class >down. Maybe I should give up like everyone wants >me to. More likely, if this is what you're interested in, you should be directed to courses at the appropriate level to fill in the background you're missing. after you're up to speed, you should be able to do the course you want. Several years back, I had a student flunking a post-secondary physics (optics) course. Why? Because he couldn't do ARITHMETIC. There was no way I could help him with several years of obviously messed up high school math, along with the physics that I WAS prepared to help with. I often see students at university failing physics because of poor algebra; again, something which should have been fixed years ago. No teacher has time to tutor their own subjects along WITH every prior subject that the student should have covered. That's why students who are missing stuff need to get that fixed FIRST, so each instructor only has to help with the current material.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 2:05 PM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 02:05:04 EST (In reply to phys_lab) It would make sense to teach things one needs to know in order to be able to pass other classes later. This would be logical. It sure is too bad this doesn't happen sometimes. If there was some knid of Code, maybe things would start to happen but people pass classes everyday that do not deserve to pass because they simply have not been taught the material. naldo007

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 3:46 PM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 03:46:23 EST I often see students >at university failing physics because of poor >algebra; again, something which should have been >fixed years ago. (In reply to phys_lab) Does your university provide entrance exams in algebra? Students who fail, could be directed to remedial courses. What a shame for a student to end up in course for which they have inadequate preparation. Passing a provincial/national high school exam in math, as it is already in English, should be a requirement for graduation, or at least, for university entrance. How are students to know where their deficiencies lie? Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: buttercup Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 3:56 PM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 03:56:57 EST It would make sense to >teach things one needs to know in order to be >able to pass other classes later. This would be >logical. It sure is too bad this doesn't happen >sometimes. If there was some knid of Code, maybe >things would start to happen but people pass >classes everyday that do not deserve to pass >because they simply have not been taught the >material. (In reply to naldo007) Yes, I completely agree with you. Even bright students are often rushed through inadequate programs. Then too, there is an enormous gulf between high school educators and university educators. We need to make sure that our policy makers are looking at how students are educated in countries that have higher success rates than our own. There we might learn something. What's going on in Finland that makes their math students so successful? Buttercup

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: phys_lab Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 4:07 PM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 04:07:45 EST (In reply to buttercup) >Does your >university provide entrance exams in algebra? I believe there is. The one problem is that it doesn't address the issue of prerequisites properly. (i.e. If someone's supposed to be taking calculus along with first year physics, what happens if they can't DO calculus until they've passed the remedial algebra course? The test really ought to predate university acceptance.) >Passing a provincial/national >high school exam in math, as it is already in >English, should be a requirement for graduation, >or at least, for university entrance. How are >students to know where their deficiencies lie? > I grew up in Quebec where we had provincial exams for ALL of our subjects in the last 2 years of high school. I'd be all for bringing that here. (Final grades were divided 50% class work and 50% provincial exam.) I've been predicting for years, but haven't been proven right yet, that Canadian universities will eventually get together and set up provincial or national qualifying exams, like SATs in the US. Then it doesn't matter if high schools inflate marks; it'll be the qualifying exam marks that matter. High schools with a bad record for student performance on the exams will become pariahs, no matter what marks they give their own students.

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: Please login to reply to this message. Posted Monday, Nov 23 at 5:09 PM Mon, Nov 23, 09 at 05:09:02 EST Yeah, in high school I don't know how I graduated. I went through a couple of classes where I did not complete one assignment. I pulled a B in the class. On the Final I recieved and A (I didn't even show up to that). It's a crazy thing. I eventually got kicked out of high school and went to an alternative school where I didn't have to do anything except ride a bus for 3 hrs a day, to and back from school. We use to watch TV there at school. No one cared if we smoked at lunch time. We use to have wrestling matches in class instead of lecturing. No one gave a $hit. I had a principle there take away my smoke and got it back at the end of the day just by going into his office and asking for it back, then telling him I wouldn't bring it to school any more. That was just how it was. I never really had to study until I moved away to another school when I was a kid. I failed miserably there, ended up going back to the hood, and graduated in an alternative school. Everything that I know now, was just now learned in the past few yrs of my life. I think some people have no idea how bad things can be for some people. This kind of thing is just going to keep happening over and over again unless people can find a better place to live. No one wants to live where I am from, trust me. The one plus to where I came from was the people in the neighborhood (they were more like family). I have not seen this family type environment since I left that place. -Not even in college (definetely not there)

Re: So tempting to give nothing but A's posted by: mocos Please login to reply to this message. Posted Tuesday, Nov 24 at 12:30 AM Tue, Nov 24, 09 at 12:30:56 EST (In reply to phys_lab) >"However, in some ways the problem is less about the total number of students than about the average quality of students. The bottom 10% or so of students in a class probably require 50% or more of the work in teaching (giving extra help, re-explaining, etc.) and so the whole system could be improved by more "ruthless" streaming; i.e. only letting qualified students into courses." I agree with the statement about the quality of students is more important than the shear number of students. But I also think that by having less, excuse me, fewer students per teacher, you can improve the quality. I can think back to my education where I learned a lot more and a lot easier when there were only 8 students in a class (my AP calculus class in high school) versus 1000 students in a class (my intro bio class in college). The reason why is because you can have more one on one with the teacher - the teacher has more time per student (which has been discussed above in this forum) to answer any specific questions that the student may have in a particular area of the given subject. So to summarize, I think the two go hand in hand. >"In the school system this would require more deliberate evaluation of what students are good at to give more focused career counseling. There are way too many students in programs who shouldn't be there just because they have to do "something". These are the ones who bog down the system." I also agree that there are too many students in classes that they don't really care about. They may be there only to meet requirements for a degree. However, most people aren't sure of what career they want to take when they first start their college studies. Taking a variety of classes helps students figure out what they like and what they're good at. Say a student enrolls in a class that they are interested in but has never taken before (so they aren't sure if they are good at it or not), then realizes in the middle of a semester that they are not good at the subject. Now they have a choice: drop the class (and give up), or work really hard to try to pass the class and still learn something. I think that if someone is working hard and going the extra mile to TRY to learn, we should meet them halfway. Sometimes it may be hard to distinguish between someone who is working really hard to try to learn and someone who is just trying to get a good grade and doesn't really care about the class, but we should always give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

w1

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